Starkiller Vs Kain

Starkiller Vs Kain

Suggested by Amm0vamp1r3

Starkiller, The Jedi of the force unleashed series (Star Wars) up against The Vampire Lord of the the Legacy of Kain series.

Both warriors are known for their ability to control people with their particular brand of TK. Their ability with close quarters combat but which of the two would come out on top?

The fight takes place in London after the Nazi invasion (Hellsing)

Both have been rested, feed before the fight.

Who would win?

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78 Comments on "Starkiller Vs Kain"

  1. Rookie September 17, 2014 at 6:31 am -      #1

    Why such weird picture for Kain? IMO It should’t be too hard to find good picture in full size for him and not half of his face…

    Dunno who will win ( I have a feeling that either Kain win thanks to his time manipulation, or Starkiller will chop him into pieces, the guy dragged down Stardestroyer) but they better finish their fight, before… “Zero Release” hour)))

    P.S. Kain! Yes, that it’s. An ideal member of my quest idea for match… wonder if such thing could be interesting.

  2. Ragnorke September 17, 2014 at 7:52 am -      #2

    @Rookie
    “P.S. Kain! Yes, that it’s. An ideal member of my quest idea for match… wonder if such thing could be interesting.”

    Care to explain? i’m intrigued.

  3. Rookie September 17, 2014 at 8:03 am -      #3

    @Ragnorke

    “Care to explain? i’m intrigued.”

    Ah, the idea is simple. We take a several bad guys (originally I wanted to take heroes, but I change my mind. Now it’s either bad guys or mix between bad and good) and send them on a quests. Their tasks will not be easy, but to win they must only complete their tasks. As soon as they either grab magical artifacts or defeat “vile” beast it counts as win and they in instant in safe zone. There will be several tasks (I have 9 in mind) and each member of the team who die during any of these tasks is dead for the rest of the game.
    So you see idea is simple. But how to make it right… now here is the hard part. I have several members, Szass Tam, Larloch, Demogorgon and now Kain, need two more… and that the easy part. Quests however much more diffucult to create. Sure, I’l may make “killing Alduin before Dragonborn kill him and adventures must not harm Dragonborn in any way” or steal Demon Soul artifact from Deathwing, but will it work? I am not so sure.

  4. Darth Expert September 17, 2014 at 9:11 am -      #4

    Kain gets chopped in half and thrown into the sun. Stomp!

  5. Mea quidem sententia September 17, 2014 at 9:34 am -      #5

    I’ve already addressed the nail sharpness in some other thread. So that better not be used here to make it seem Kain can withstand more pressure than what the Sun provides.

    If we’re using the pixel scaling, then Kain’s TK can destroy 164 short tons. Of course, the problems here are the assumed material the stalagmite is made of and the height and width based on pixel scaling.

    Since so many people abide by this, I suppose that’ll favor Kain. (I’ve found errors with pixel scaling, so this won’t be persuasive to me. The material is also assumed, which won’t persuade me, since it’s Nosgoth, not our universe. I’ll stick with our physics just to humor people.)

  6. Ragnorke September 17, 2014 at 10:20 am -      #6

    “There will be several tasks (I have 9 in mind) and each member of the team who die during any of these tasks is dead for the rest of the game.
    So you see idea is simple.”

    Quite interesting if done right… balancing it would be a bitch

  7. Warlock Lowk September 17, 2014 at 12:33 pm -      #7

    Starkiller mental abilities all him to cause people to commit suicide. Does Kain have mental defenses?

  8. Rookie September 17, 2014 at 12:46 pm -      #8

    @Warlock Lowk

    “Starkiller mental abilities all him to cause people to commit suicide. Does Kain have mental defenses?”

    Note: Kain here is at his weakest, he did not regain his powers untill the end of the game. From 1:50

  9. Amm0vamp1r3 September 17, 2014 at 1:03 pm -      #9

    As shown by Rookie Kain does have mental defenses and from what I know, Starkiller does not but ive only played a little bit of the second one.

  10. Warlock Lowk September 17, 2014 at 4:07 pm -      #10

    “Starkiller does not but ive only played a little bit of the second one.”

    He managed to fight off vaders mind screw on Kamino.
    Also at max Starkiller can break through the sith acolytes defenses and mind trick them.
    ===
    Power feats.
    youtu.be/lbVKMFfjLKs?t=10m55s
    Can put out enough juice to power a cannon capable of putting a hole in a StarDestroyer
    .-
    youtu.be/TaL5Du-iwrE?t=1m40s
    1:40-2:08 moves away chucks of debris and even an entire ship with tk from a considerable distance.
    2:35 crushes and force crushes a meteor till it breaks.
    3:58-4:59, stars balsting away chucks of smaller debris, tie fighter, then swings a tie fighter away.
    ===
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLZTACMuMBU
    Blast capable of disintegration like above are canon.

  11. Friendlysociopath September 17, 2014 at 4:28 pm -      #11

    Cautiously throwing my vote to Kain, he has some OP skills.

  12. Rookie September 17, 2014 at 4:35 pm -      #12

    @Friendlysociopath

    “Cautiously throwing my vote to Kain, he has some OP skills.”

    Starkiller dragged entire stardestroyer from space.

  13. Friendlysociopath September 17, 2014 at 4:55 pm -      #13

    “Starkiller dragged entire stardestroyer from space.”

    Oh goody, Kain has:
    1) Durability, I think I read somewhere on here he tanks at least 50 tons of force. Not useful against lightsabers per say but his physical strength is also supposed to be quite strong.
    2) Better mind control.
    3) The ability to shift between dimensions if I remember right.
    4) Intangibility.
    5) Pyrokinesis
    6) Teleportation, can be used to blitz also
    7) Immunity/control of lightning
    8) A spell-reflecting shield
    9) Blood control, which may or may not fall right in with telekinesis

  14. Tancalebner September 17, 2014 at 4:57 pm -      #14

    I read through the comments, and if this was already mentioned I’m sorry… I remember from The Force Unleashed trailers Starkiller incinerated squads of Stormtroopers with the force…. Just another feat for Starkiller…

  15. Tancalebner September 17, 2014 at 5:10 pm -      #15

    @Friend
    I don’t believe the ability to shift through dimensions is legal with the BankGambling rules.

    If I remember right Starkiller also has the ability to control force lightning.

    Starkiller does not use spells, so a spell reflecting shield doesn’t really apply unless it is proven to stop a lightsaber or whatever you think your gonna stop.

    Also I’d like to see a compare and contrast between Starkiller and Kain’s mind control if you could.

  16. Kitten Lord September 17, 2014 at 5:18 pm -      #16

    @Mea

    “I’ve already addressed the nail sharpness in some other thread”

    What did you say? The last time we spoke on it you used a different calculator which gave just as impossible figures. Its not about nail sharpness, its about the end result, which was the destruction of inside tons of stone with fairly easy slashes, whether he used sharpness of claws, strength or some sort of sorcery I could probably explain on all fronts but the end result is Kain was invulnerable to it, which gives the pressure figuires in the respect thread.

    Whats in that thread is a mean of all the different calcluations from multiple people, it cant get much fairer than that.

    That said, that probably cant save Kain from a lightsaber strike, so I ask, whats Starkillers speed like? his actual movement speed, and how will he catch a teleporter? More importantly, can he defeat immortality? Kain can as Mea pointed out unleash triple digit tons of force, and his TK can be narrowed down to miniscule areas, e.g. he can TK blood, therefore he is likely to be able to kill starkiller with his own TK, is force/TK interchangable in this thread? compatible?

    @Tancalebner

    “Also I’d like to see a compare and contrast between Starkiller and Kain’s mind control if you could.”

    Kains mind control is in the respect thread;

    He has three versions, true mind control, soul control and a magical mind control as opposed to pure mental. Basically Kain can do what Marcas can do, enchant humans without much effort, Starkiller should be able to resist if he can resist actual mind control though.

  17. Tancalebner September 17, 2014 at 5:23 pm -      #17

    Thank you @LordoftheKittens

  18. Kitten Lord September 17, 2014 at 5:27 pm -      #18

    No problem buddy

  19. Tancalebner September 17, 2014 at 5:30 pm -      #19

    @Kitten Lord
    In response to your speed question… Well he’s a pretty spry guy, and he’s a force user so there you go. Also since he is a force user, and a pretty extraordinary one at that, he would have the ability to sense where Kain would teleport. It’s not perfect but it’s a whole lot better of a sense than the average Joe…

  20. Kitten Lord September 17, 2014 at 5:39 pm -      #20

    Does it work like that in Star Wars? Ime not sure tbh how the force works concerning teleporters, infact I did not know teleportation existed in the force, my knowledge is from the films and some of the video games but ive not played force unleashed in a long time. All I recall is his force powers are pretty powerful though, as for speed though, like you said I recall him being spry but thats about it, I dont see him flashing forwards at hyper-sonic speed or something which is the only thing I thnk Kain would fear.

  21. Tancalebner September 17, 2014 at 5:48 pm -      #21

    Most force users have the ability to force run… (Run real real fast)… As for the teleportation thing, he could to some degree predict where he would teleport by sensing his presence and such unless, teleportation involves going to another dimension and coming back… But that is illegal as per, I believe, the BankGambling rules because Kain would be leaving the battle for a period of time…

  22. Kitten Lord September 17, 2014 at 5:54 pm -      #22

    I thought you were allowed to leave the battle as long as you can return under your own power? What rule are we talking about specifically?

    Also he would only be able to sense Kains presence once Kains arrived, which may not be so useful if Kain is giving himself some massive distance. In this fight I think the further away Kain is, the more of a problem its going to be for starkiller due to spells which he probably cannot defend against, things that attack on the spiritual level, or something he cant block like his blood pouring out of his body all of a sudden after gesture from the vampire lord.

    Theres also time magic at kains disposal, if Kain slowed time or worse, launched incapacitate on Starkiller which completly freezes someone in time then he would be at Kains mercy. I am also unsure how Starkiller would defeat Kains ability t turn into mist unless he can destroy mist particles with his TK, he could evaporate it I imagine with saber though.

  23. Tancalebner September 17, 2014 at 6:06 pm -      #23

    @Kitten
    I looked in the BankGambling debating rules and I saw nothing to suggest what either of us said in regards to leaving the battlefield. But there was a rule about giving an unfair advantage to one player or the other. I’m not sure if this applies however it is reasonable to conclude that teleporting to another dimension and teleporting back would be illegal… What you said in the final part of your commentprobably gives Kain the win, unless anyone else has other feats or defenses against Kain’s abilities…

  24. Warlock Lowk September 17, 2014 at 6:10 pm -      #24

    For speed he’s got blocking blaster at close range, dodging debris while falling at high speeds, and fighting even with EU Vader who like most jedi get get speed boost just cuz EU.

  25. Alpha or Omega September 17, 2014 at 7:19 pm -      #25

    Teleporting into another dimension, and back is perfectly fine.
    An unfair advantage would be using that dimension you warp into to power yourself up…maybe.

  26. Mea quidem sententia September 18, 2014 at 10:25 am -      #26

    Kitten Lord Post #16
    I used one that actually exists. The one that was given to you by someone doesn’t. I looked it up on Google and like any other formula, I would expect that one to show up on several different sites. It didn’t, so . . .

  27. Kitten Lord September 18, 2014 at 6:03 pm -      #27

    They just calculated it, its from the physics forum. You used a dubious online calculator whos coding cannot be accounted for and as you recall, the numbers plugged into said calculator just gave silly numbers, like raziels strength being half the force of a human bite.

    My source had some idea behind the working by using Brinell hardness scale, which does exist.

  28. Mea quidem sententia September 18, 2014 at 11:58 pm -      #28

    You’d need to prove it’s a dubious calculator. It is one for Brinell’s hardness scale.

  29. Kitten Lord September 19, 2014 at 6:28 am -      #29

    I proved its end calculation for what we were trying to find was dubious due to as I said, it giving us pascals of minuscule proportions that humans could provide by biting being enough to bore out multiple tons of stone.

    Also although e one would have to prove it dubious, you would also have to prove its useful to swear by it, since both sides must be proven, without negatives. Of course, maybe just the information entered is in error. The point is the end result is faulty.

    Either way, the calc I use based on the end result from my source clearly gave a supernatural result that matches the supernatural feat that I was trying to calc.

  30. Tancalebner September 19, 2014 at 6:48 am -      #30

    What are you fighting about?

  31. Kitten Lord September 19, 2014 at 7:01 am -      #31

    How to calculate one of Kains feats, Mea thinks the initial source I used to calc the feat is wrong although ime not sure why, at comment 26 of this thread he seems to believe that since he cant find the same working somewhere else it cant exist,

    I can understand why he wants to fault it though because its extremely high scale, hence why I used a median from multiple posters on here who took a bash at calculating the feat which was this one;

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpWP9e-iQj8&t=1m52s

    You can see the calculations done by everyone here;

    www.factpiletopia.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=45106

    Under the “physical capabilities” header on the first page.

    Aeflinn, Mea and my own source calced it, and the median is what I generally use since I find that fair enough. It does not ignore any of the calcs.

    -

  32. Tancalebner September 19, 2014 at 7:04 am -      #32

    Sounds fair… @Mea, Get over it…

  33. Mea quidem sententia September 19, 2014 at 11:18 am -      #33

    Kitten Lord Post #29
    Here’s the calculation again.

    P = BHN * pi * D(D – sqrt(D^2 – d^2))/2

    P = 1,000 * 3.14 * 20 mm(20 mm – sqrt(20 mm^2 – 0.204^2))/2

    P = 32.77 kgf, or 321 N, which is the same as 72 lb.

    www.ajdesigner.com/phphardness/brinell_hardness_number_p.php

    Just because the results are the ones you ended up with isn’t any concern of mine. Demonstrate why this calculation is wrong. Also, please don’t poison the well. People like Tancalebner will be easily persuaded, despite not knowing the history of our discussion.

  34. Tancalebner September 19, 2014 at 4:39 pm -      #34

    @Mea
    Since what Kitten Lord said was not any of your concern… Why should ”Demonstrate why this calculation is wrong.” concern Kitten…

    From what I currently understand, Kitten took 3 different calcs from 3 different people, met in the middle, and averaged them out… Sure it may not be the exact measurement to the tee, but it gives people a very close idea… That’s why I think he’s right and not because, “People like Tancalebner will be easily persuaded”…

  35. Kitten Lord September 19, 2014 at 6:25 pm -      #35

    @Mea

    Mea, I never tried to persuade him of anything, I just told him what happened because he asked for it.

    Heres what I used;

    “where F = normal force applied in newtons, D = diameter of the indenter in mm, and d = diameter of indentation in mm.

    Just for fun here’s a back-of-the-envelope calculation: to completely push the ball into the material means D=d, and we can rearrange this to become:

    Image

    Mild steel has a hardess of about 120 and tool steel around 1500, so we can probably guess that granite might be a bit softer than tool steel – let’s call it 1000. If we assume that the character’s claws are each about 20 mm in diameter we get:

    F = (1000 x pi x 20^2)/0.204 = 6.2 million newtons, or about 1.4 million pounds. ”

    Thats the quote. The simple reason why your calculation cannot be right for what were trying to find is because 72 pounds is nothing, certainly not enough to explain boring through tons of solid stone. Its as if I tried to use a calculation to explain force of a thousand ton weight falling on a house and coming up with pressure on the building being below that of a pin dropping on it.

    Now my source makes sense to me, his calc he explains what hes doing, to a lamen in math like me your equation does not, hence why to me its just a calculator giving me a number. Said number as I said is below the pressure required for the feat in question, its like if we were discussing Superman, knowing full well his capabilities and getting below human levels of strength or pressure form his attacks, clearly those calcs are in error somewhere.

    -

  36. Ragnorke September 19, 2014 at 6:35 pm -      #36

    Now granted i haven’t been keeping up with the discussion, but:

    “From what I currently understand, Kitten took 3 different calcs from 3 different people, met in the middle, and averaged them out”

    This is totally incorrect, and should never be used in a debate.

    If 3 different people used 3 different calcs, and got 3 different answers… Two of those people are undoubtedly wrong, with the third person possibly being wrong too.
    Averaging them out doesn’t give you an “estimate”, but rather it just gives you a flat out WRONG answer, not supported by ANY of the three calcs.

    So this method is absolutely bullshit. I don’t know if it’s actually what you did or not, but jus sayin.

  37. Kitten Lord September 19, 2014 at 6:41 pm -      #37

    Its the only way to get a “fair” answer if not a right answer. Clearly some are wrong, but since this experiment cannot actually be done, said estimates are the best we can have without me just out rightly saying I wont use one persons calculation.

    Finding a mean is as fair as possible.

    @Mea

    Using your calculator, having 20mm in both boxes, with 1k as the hardness number gives me my the 6.2 million newtons that my source gave me. I dont understand your working though. Can you explain it to a lamen?

  38. Ragnorke September 19, 2014 at 6:46 pm -      #38

    “Its the only way to get a “fair” answer if not a right answer”

    It is definitely not the right answer. That isn’t up for debate.
    As for how “fair” it is… it isn’t really fair at all.
    The only acceptable answer would be an estimate of the CORRECT answer. And since it’s clear as fuck that this IS NOT an estimate of the CORRECT answer, but rather taking the mean of 2 (or 3) INCORRECT answers.
    So no, It is not acceptable whatsoever.

    “said estimates are the best we can have ”

    Except it isn’t an estimate of the correct answer at all. Stop making it sound like it is.
    If it’s truly the “best we can have”, then we assume there is no calc available for it at all, instead of assuming your mean is the correct one.

  39. Kitten Lord September 19, 2014 at 6:58 pm -      #39

    The estimates were all about the “hardness scale” of the object in question. All the calcs are correct when the estimate of the hardness scale used per calcluation is taken into account.

    Meaning their findings and workings gives me a global estimation of the BankGambling findings on this example. Like I said, it gives us a number without having to cut out anyone who may disagree on the hardness of the block.

    “The only acceptable answer would be an estimate of the CORRECT answer”

    This makes no sense, if we had the correct answer then we woudlnt need an estimation, what were you trying to say here?

  40. Mea quidem sententia September 20, 2014 at 1:07 am -      #40

    Tancalebner Post #34
    I was one of those people, but the two others used the equation given by an unnamed person. If several people take an equation to see if the math adds up, there’s usually no contention. That is not the issue, however. The issue is the validity of this equation to begin with.

    Kitten Lord Posts #35, 37
    Kitten Lord do you notice something? What you refer to as F is what I refer to as P, which is called a load Next is “1,000”, which would be the Brinell hardness number, or BHN. Then there’s pi multiplied by 20 mm^2.

    You’ll notice that the equation you used does not have anything squared. And the division is not 0.204 mm^2, but it it used as the denominator, rather than 2, which is the equation I used.

    You doubt the site that I linked, yet it’s a site I’ve used several times here. For example, finding the gravity Nightmare produced in Metroid: Other M is an actual equation, which you can find on that site.

    All this person did was what you see here, but he changed it, since the other equations in that link regarding BHN doesn’t show what equation you have. The closest is what I’ve posted.

    In the three boxes in the link, this is what I typed:

    Brinell hardness number (BHN) – 1000
    Steel ball diameter (D) – 20 millimeters
    Depression diameter (d) – 0.204 millimeters

    If I used 20 mm in both, then yes, I end up with 6.2 million newtons, which you have already posted. My question to you is why 0.204 mm^2 is discarded, when you used that in your original equation given to you by someone? If you go with 6.2 million newtons, then you have 692.6 tons of force.

    This is an interpretation you give to these characters, but it doesn’t appear at all consistent with the series. You could come up with ad hoc explanations, I’m sure. I would be able to do the same to defend the idea that Samus can survive 960 g. (My calcs give me 482.82 g with the Gravity Suit.) But, yeah.

  41. Kitten Lord September 20, 2014 at 4:20 am -      #41

    @Mea

    “The issue is the validity of this equation to begin with.”

    So you think what my source used as an equation is simply wrong? Why exactly? If you dissect the math he used what parts are actually wrong? You see he comes to the same number I came with, only I put 20mm rather than 0.204, I dont understand however the 0.204 and why one would put it in the Depression diameter, surely the indentation which is what were using is equel to the diameter of Raziels claws or at least close, since thats the diameter that enters the block, thats the one I see it anyway.

    So entering 20 into “d” AND “D” gives me the same result as my source, who seems to do something else, and shows his equation differently.

    ” My question to you is why 0.204 mm^2 is discarded, when you used that in your original equation given to you by someone? ”

    Its more that, my source seemed to know what he was doing with 0.204 wheras I dont, clearly he used 0.204 in his equation but his equation is different but has the same result as using 20mm “d” which is what was the end result of Raziels indentation.

    What were seeing in the video of Raz, and what our math is trying to capture is the fact his claws which are the 20mm diameter in mm are completely entering the stone, hence why the indentation is also 20mm, as an estimate of course since as pointed out his claws are not perfect spheres, can you explain what you think 0.204 millimeters as the depression diameter means? Because my source based on this calculator anyway must have gotten to 20mm for “d” AND “D” eventually to get his end result.

    If your really interested you can ask Chip on the physics forum itself, he did the calculation, maybe hes just that good he does not use a calculator and maybe his working is a simplified or refined version of what we are using?

    “but it doesn’t appear at all consistent with the series. ”

    There is no consistency to counter this calculation in the series though, you say its not consistent, how would you explain this? As a veteran of the series I can say that pressures of this magnitude although unlikely, the same could be said for any calculation made by fans for a fiction, generally because those who write fiction ont always take science into consideration, a good example is the doavakiins dragon shout.

  42. Mea quidem sententia September 20, 2014 at 10:03 am -      #42

    Kitten Lord Post #41
    All right, I see why you put 20 mm in both now, despite the Brinell hardness test making D and d different, since they are. The reason why I put a smaller number for d was because that’s how the test does it. The point of the finger is smaller, that’s why.

    In order for there to be consistency, I need to ask if Raziel ever does this more than once, and I’m not referring to the same cube. You need to also answer as to why other enemies can harm Raziel and why Raziel doesn’t use his claws to destroy anything standing in his way, such as doors.

    I don’t want any assumptions or ad hoc explanations. I want facts because that’s the word used in the name of this site. (Because it didn’t sit well with me for a calculation to say Samus’ power bombs produced 8.81 kiltons of TNT. That number was ridiculously large.) Of course, you should always have facts. If I have any more questions, I’ll ask.

  43. Kitten Lord September 20, 2014 at 11:31 am -      #43

    Were not just finding the point of the finger, were using the brinell hardness scale initially to take into account as much as the cone as possible, if were just using the point of the finger then this is not the hardness scale. Making the calculation useless. Now I understand why were getting some differences in the calculation.

    @Mea

    “In order for there to be consistency, I need to ask if Raziel ever does this more than once, and I’m not referring to the same cube. You need to also answer as to why other enemies can harm Raziel and why Raziel doesn’t use his claws to destroy anything standing in his way, such as doors.”

    He does it on pretty much every object he moves in a similiar fashion, there are different lumps of stone similiar to that cube, of different colours and potentially some metal ones. Thats consistency, something that happens every time….so I dont know what your asking for tbh.

    “You need to also answer as to why other enemies can harm Raziel ”

    Whats that got to do with anything? Canonically Raziel rarely gets harmed, I think he gets slashed by his old Sarafan brothers and what not in SR 2 and harmed by Kain but I still dont know how this changes his force used in his own slashes…

    “why Raziel doesn’t use his claws to destroy anything standing in his way, such as doors.”

    Again why is this relevent? I dont have to answer this unless you can explain why his own character not wanting to do something like slashing through everything automatically makes his other feats less impressive. Not every superhero or superhuman being in fiction smashes down or uses their full strength in every instance do they?

    ” I want facts ”

    Youve got the only facts you need, a video clearly showing raziel clawring into stone and crushing himself some grips within, which is all were calculating, it has no relevance to his other decisions. The fact that this calculation suggests Raziel could slice through anything short of adamantium does not mean he should just claw through everything in-game, never open a door, never use a mechanism etc. You could argue the same for every video game character from Dante to Kratos…..

    Its called gameplay mechanics, script, plot and character etc.

    In any case, this all sounds like a red herring. All were trying to calculate is the force required for Raziels entire claw, not just hte point because he doesnt just poke his tip in the stone, he puts the whole thing in which was why we were using 20mm for not only the size of the indenter but also the indentation.

    This is all a lowball anyway, since clearly Raziel doesnt just crush or push the stone, he liquefies/disintegrates or powders the stuff, since no material is moved and the stone is not shattered into pieces.

  44. Mea quidem sententia September 20, 2014 at 11:53 am -      #44

    You could say canonically, many protagonists hardly are harmed by others. It’s relevant because if Raziel can be harmed by other enemies besides Kain, in spite of being able to withstand 6.2 million newtons, then there’s a flaw with the interpretation.

    Sure, not every superhero uses their full strength all the time, but if that’s the case, then there’s no reason to think Raziel will ever use his full power that he expends on cubes. And yes, I expect the same for Kratos and Dante, just like I did for Samus. (That’s why I had doubts about her surviving on a planet that was 960 g. She could just kill anyone with one punch.)

    So again, enemies in-game harm Raziel. Why, if he can withstand 6.2 million newtons?

  45. Ragnorke September 20, 2014 at 12:28 pm -      #45

    @Kitten
    “This makes no sense, if we had the correct answer then we woudlnt need an estimation, what were you trying to say here?”

    It makes perfect sense.
    The problem with what you’re doing is that we know for an absolute fact that the answer you’re providing CANNOT be the correct answer. It is physically impossible for it to be the correct answer.
    Whereas an acceptable estimation needs to be one which is close to, or possibly the correct answer itself.

    You’re using the average of 2 incorrect answers & 1 possibly correct answer (keyword = possibly) to get a number.
    That number is by no means an estimate of the correct answer. At all.

    That method is not an acceptable calculation, and should not be accepted by anyone in a debate.

    I couldn’t care less who’s right or wrong as far as the match goes, but your calculation holds no ground.
    Feel free to get Admin involved, but we otherwise have no reason to take your “estimate” as anything other than a useless number.

  46. Friendlysociopath September 20, 2014 at 12:30 pm -      #46

    “So again, enemies in-game harm Raziel. Why, if he can withstand 6.2 million newtons?”

    The same reason any enemy in almost every game can hurt you- there’s no gameplay value in being invulnerable. This is true for literally everyone who regularly appears on this site, Cloud gets hurt by friggin rabbits headbutting him in his game- he then turns around and chops buildings in half.
    Edit: Hey, Gravatar kicked in

  47. Mea quidem sententia September 20, 2014 at 1:47 pm -      #47

    Friendlysociopath Post #46
    I don’t dismiss what occurs in game play so easily. You can see my thread on game mechanics at the Topia to see why. If one thing occurs in game play and is accepted, all things in game play are accepted, unless a persuasive argument can be given as to why one applies and the other doesn’t.

    Cloud should get hurt by rabbits that headbutt him because that’s how physics works. If we’re all going to be applying physics, then clearly it makes sense for a rabbit to harm Cloud.

  48. Friendlysociopath September 20, 2014 at 2:01 pm -      #48

    @ Mea, could you link it please? I can’t navigate the topia very well yet and I am interested.

    On one hand, I do see your point about how we should use all gameplay when we use gameplay, but it doesn’t logically add up in a lot of times. (Looks at Legend of Zelda, hard)

    For example, using the rabbit- how could a small animal headbutting Cloud’s leg do any damage to him when he can tank building busting attacks? That should do nothing to him, yet it hurts him and can even knock him out. Logically this makes no sense whatsoever. It’s the game asserting that it is a game. Canonically a rabbit headbutting Cloud’s leg does nothing. See also any RPG where characters tank bullets when they canonically die from being hit by bullets.

    Just to point out though. a majority of what Raziel fights is supernatural entities, so it’s not like he takes damage from weak creatures.

  49. Kitten Lord September 20, 2014 at 2:16 pm -      #49

    @Mea

    ” in spite of being able to withstand 6.2 million newtons, then there’s a flaw with the interpretation.”

    He outputs those newtons, hes a supernatural being so how he uses that energy is not necesserily the same as a physical entity, we dont know if his muscles or what not are creating it. My source said his claws would simply have to be ridiculously strong. We would then have to calculate the pressures hes under. He can be sliced by humans with swords for example.

    “then there’s no reason to think Raziel will ever use his full power that he expends on cubes. ”

    Your right, maybe its not his full power, hence why this is a lowball, but were not finding his full power, just the force required to indent up to his whole claws into the stone.

    @Rag

    “possibly the correct answer itself.”

    Again your reasoning makes no sense to me, if its the correct answer then its not an estimate, and these estimates are “close”, the only idfference is the brinell scale number we use and all of those are within only a hundred or so units which is relatively close so yes, their close to the correct answer if not.

    Bottom line is both the calcs made by Mea, Topaz, Aeflinn, Chip and myself are all within an aproximate area to the correct answer, only about 10-100 units are out, we just could not decide which one is correct, this makes it an estimate, it does not have to be the correct answer to be an estimate, then its not an estimate…..

    @Mea

    “So again, enemies in-game harm Raziel. Why, if he can withstand 6.2 million newtons?”

    Simple, the same reason any character can be harmed in-game, gameplay mechanics. Mechanics that are not meant to take the games canon or storyline values into play and supercede them for hte sake of amusement for the player. If Raziel, Kratos and Dante killed everything in one hit at speeds those enemies cannot react to then theres no fun is there? of course not, the same reason why every shot in a Call of Duty game does not always one shot you or cause you to collapse bleeding on the floor, its takes a few shots.

    Thats why we generally use some logic when concerning damage values in-game.

    Friendly Sociapath covered this, weve gone over this Mea and if you really do think gameplay mechanics should be accounted for over cutscenes and other canons then we will just have to agree to disagree because its clear ot me ourright that games and their protagonists cant have the canon stats with the player at the controls all the time, hell its the reason Dante moves at like peak human speed half the time in-game, or superman does in the Injustice game, players cant play a character at their peak any more than enemies can face your character at their peak in most cases, games need to be fun.

    To get in the nitty gritty of what Raziel can tank, you would have to calculate the pressures hes under while focusing his newtons, and then find out how much pressure his body can take in certain areas. It makes sense for his claws to be super strong since their basically supernatural bone evolved over time and are used instead of swords (other than exceptions of course like the soul reaver) but his little blue cadaver body is not so durable.

    Besides, youve got gameplay limitations to consider.

  50. Ragnorke September 20, 2014 at 2:45 pm -      #50

    “Again your reasoning makes no sense to me, if its the correct answer then its not an estimate, ”

    An estimate needs to have the POSSIBILITY of being the correct answer, or slightly above or below.
    Estimate: “an approximate calculation or judgement of the value, number, quantity, or extent of something.”
    It needs to be an approximate calculation or judgement OF the correct answer.

    However your calculation factually CANNOT be the correct answer, since you aren’t even trying to find the correct answer, but are rather averaging out several incorrect answers.
    It cannot & should not be used as a viable point on BankGambling.

    “and myself are all within an aproximate area to the correct answer, only about 10-100 units are out”

    Ah, i see.
    I thought the three calcs resulted in significantly different answers, thus the misunderstanding.
    If all three answers were relatively similar, then it makes sense.

  51. Mea quidem sententia September 20, 2014 at 6:08 pm -      #51

    Friendlysociopath Post #48
    Here’s the link: BankGamblingtopia.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=147096

    I can’t say I’ve ever observed Cloud withstand “building busting attacks”. Then again, I’ve never played FF7. I’m not sure if this rabbit you speak of is an actual rabbit, or if it’s something that resembles a rabbit.

    Bullets are another thing. I understand hit points, so I suppose there are exceptions. I’m not certain how to explain situations like that, but if bullets are harming the characters, I tend to lean to the idea that bullets will actually harm, if not kill them when we put aside the game mechanics in RPGs.

    I’m honestly not huge on RPGs and I think a lot of things you observe in RPGs shoud be taken with a grain of salt. For example, using Ifrit’s Hell Fire in FF8 on the train would obliterate the train, yet it’s still moving. I understand this as actually never occurring when it comes to canon.

    I realize Raziel is dealing with supernatural enemies, but from what I’ve observed, there are knights who can harm Raziel with their weapons. I won’t say the weapons will kill Raziel instantly, but after you read the link to my thread, I think you’ll get the idea that I’m presenting is that something can be extracted from the game mechanics that can be applied in a realistic setting.

    Kitten Lord Post #49
    If Raziel has a physical body, then anything he acts on will be physical. In other words, whatever has a physical cause has a physical effect. Can you prove that his claws are supernatural? For all we know, Raziel’s claws are as hard, if not harder than diamond.

    If Raziel can be harmed by weapons made by humans, then I would expect Raziel’s defense not extremely high as you’re making it out to be. We should strive to be consistent, Kitten Lord.

    I just want to make sure things are consistent and it’s not your fault, nor mine, if we come up with inconsistencies from the series. Developers do mess up, even if it’s canon, only because of th internal inconsistencies. (See planet Zebes’ gravity for details.)

    Game mechanics may be part of the problem, but with game mechanics, there is something that can be extracted from it. Raziel, Kratos, and Dante all deal with supernatural villains, but I know there are humans in Soul Reaver. You know that in CoD, you can die from gunshots. While the mechanic is surviving these wounds, the thing extracted from it is the fact that you’re being harmed.

    You’ll see in my thread that I bring up cut-scenes. Who decides why cut-scenes are above game play, or why textual evidence are above cut-scenes? Everything needs to be taken into consideration. You disagree with Kratos’ strength because he struggles opening those chests that have those red orbs in them, right? I’m not saying one form of evidence is greater than another. What I am saying is that we should treat them all equally and come up with something consistent.

  52. Kitten Lord September 21, 2014 at 4:04 am -      #52

    @mea

    “Bullets are another thing. I understand hit points, so I suppose there are exceptions. ”

    Game mechanics are excepetions, their excepetions to the reality of the character, and its the same in every example you give, whether bullets are harming or not harming humans realistically or if men with swords are harming or not harming Raziel or Kain realistically, those exceptions are made for the sake of the player.

    “Can you prove that his claws are supernatural? For all we know, Raziel’s claws are as hard, if not harder than diamond.”

    Depends on how you argue it, the definition of supernatural is something that cannot necessarily be explained in science or nature, since Raziel uses magic, sorcery and is himself at best a very slim cadaver moving very vast quantities. So although I cant prove his claws are specifically emitting supernatural powers to break things, him being supernatural makes this a not so unlikely suggestion. Of course, your right, his claws could be harder than diamond, infact my source Chip said exactly hte same thing when I initially asked for the calc.

    “If Raziel can be harmed by weapons made by humans, then I would expect Raziel’s defense not extremely high as you’re making it out to be”

    I never said Raziels defense is especially high, were discussing Kain here, Kains the only one who has this feat. And just because Raziels claws have super properties does not mean his flesh, skin and what not has the same.

    ” Developers do mess up, even if it’s canon, only because of th internal inconsistencies. ”

    True but like I said, an actual example has to be found, the developers show Raziel consistently moving large objects in the same fashion and using his claws in many of his functions, its a delibertate effect, just as much as him not being able to harm Kain in the same fashion. Infact they actually retconned Kain to be even more durable than he was in the original game, in which he could be hurt by raziel, so its all very deliberate.

    “the thing extracted from it is the fact that you’re being harmed.”

    Your being harmed when you should be killed while in Soul reaver, your being harmed when you should be invulnerable or tkaing little to no damage. As weve covered, mechanics can do all sorts of crazy things, they do not neceserily suggest someone can be harmed by something weak, especially when a cutscene or higher form of evidence like the lore or devs say otherwise. I agree that if no such evidence exists then maybe the mechanics or what enemies can harm what may be relevent but I dont think mechanics of any kind can counter the actual story or lore.

    Story, lore and cutscenes dont need to make the gameplay mechanic excepetions, tehy can show what the devs truly want the player to understand because they dont have to take into account the players experiance from a game perspective.

    “ou disagree with Kratos’ strength because he struggles opening those chests that have those red orbs in them, right?”

    Hmm so so, I may have brought it up before but consistency with Kratos is theres a lot in the game he has some struggle with, and those chests, doors and what not were specifcally scripted, for no reason I can name to be difficult.

    “Who decides why cut-scenes are above game play,”

    I cover it above but the simple fact that the mechanics are made especially to give exception to the player, whos playing the game, and how they experiance it proves that its less clear as a form of canon than a cutscene is, which takes no exception. Cutscenes are especially made to tell the story and events, gameplay mechanics are not, and while storyline elements can happen in gameplay, the mechanics are rarely mentioned in the lore, story or by characters. You rarely if ever get a cutscene where the characters are discussing how much health from his bar the player lost.

    Cutscenes are key and integral to the games story and its characters, wheras how the player plays and the rules they have to play under are not.

    Also some logic has to be taken in many mechanics anyway, it makes no sense for some superhumans who can shrug off nukes, or titan skyscraper sized enemies hitting them without a bruise only for them to lose “in-game” health to a tiny creature punching them but it does make sense for the game to be balanced for the players own enjoyment, nobody wants ot be too overpowered really.

  53. Mea quidem sententia September 21, 2014 at 10:52 am -      #53

    All I’m saying is something should be drawn from game mechanics. If a character receives damage in-game, it cannot be dismissed as game mechanics.

    I’m going to take the example of FF7 with that rabbit. (It’s much larger than I thought.) It looks like it’s name is Jumping. It’s attacks are Dive Kick and Club Sword. Despite Cloud being able to cause a lot of damage, I don’t see how being attacks by a Jumping wouldn’t harm him and how it should be treated as a game mechanic.

    No matter what you try to say about game mechanics, the fact of the matter is that there is something true about it. Otherwise, we should just disregard anything that happens in game play.

    I suppose I did err, but I thought Kain and Raziel had the same durability. Still, Kain does fight knights, correct? Sure, you could disregard any damage he receives as well, saying that cut-scenes and textual evidence state otherwise, but this is where the internal inconsistencies come in.

    For example, despite the textual evidence saying that Zebes is 4.8 trillion teratons, the visual evidence, which occurs in-game, proves otherwise. Heck, even visual evidence can be wrong, as I demonstrated in the thread I made on game mechanics. The Joker should have been blown away by that explosion directly in front of him and severely burned, but nothing happens to him.

  54. Kitten Lord September 21, 2014 at 12:08 pm -      #54

    @Mea

    ” If a character receives damage in-game, it cannot be dismissed as game mechanics.”

    Why if it is gameplay mechanics though?

    “but this is where the internal inconsistencies come in.”

    Thats not an inconsistency of the character or his stats, merely the exception issued by the mechanics so the player, who is frankly irrelevent to the characters stats itself can have fun.

    Nothing canonically can be drawn from it either, because whether Kain or Raziel gets hit at all is up to player control, no one can say for sure if Kain is “ever” really hit by people, therefore it cannot be said its inconsistent if he is damaged by them.

    Its also hard to tell if Kain is wounded at all since when your hit in-game the character is merely knocked back briefly, which makes some sense since as durable as Kain is, his weight is still the same so someone hitting him is going to move him.

    “For example, despite the textual evidence saying that Zebes is 4.8 trillion teratons, the visual evidence, which occurs in-game, proves otherwise. Heck, even visual evidence can be wrong, as I demonstrated in the thread I made on game mechanics. The Joker should have been blown away by that explosion directly in front of him and severely burned, but nothing happens to him.”

    This is just fair logic though based on several interpretations. We know X is true so if its in error in a lesser canon or against all logic in general like the Joker surviving a point blank explosion then maybe either he can, or we look at every reference of the joker to find the consistency as you said.

    You can look for every canon reference for Kain and never find him wounded by simple means since becoming the evolved Elder he is today.

  55. Mea quidem sententia September 21, 2014 at 5:38 pm -      #55

    Kitten Lord Post #54
    You’d need to prove it’s a game mechanic, since it can be demonstrated that the protagonist can receive damage.

    Getting hit is player dependent, I agree. However, since we cannot know if a character will get hit or not, to claim it’s one or another is an argument from ignorance.

    If Kain gets hit and receives damage, it’s up to you to prove that he’s really just being knocked back without receiving damage. Then burden is not on me because the game demonstrates the damage. (Calling it a game mechanic is an assertion, not evidence.) After all, should Kain die, it wouldn’t make sense that he was just being knocked back all this time.

    You may treat some things as lesser canon, but it’s canon, regardless. Sure, I could make a new thread on the pros and cons for each form of evidence. It could be useful.

  56. Kitten Lord September 21, 2014 at 5:53 pm -      #56

    @Mea

    “However, since we cannot know if a character will get hit or not, to claim it’s one or another is an argument from ignorance.”

    It just means any argument against Kains durability that relies on him getting hit is useless against the evidence from the actual cutscenes which prove he is durable. Not that as I said, mechanics are relevent.

    “After all, should Kain die”

    He cant die, it says so in the manuel he is immortal.

    “You may treat some things as lesser canon, but it’s canon”

    Canon to the game, but not relevent to the lore or its actual characters or story, the mechanics themselves are relevent to the gameplay only. Either way, the actual facts overule the “assumption” Kain would be harmed by a lesser force. As no such force harms him in the games.

    “prove it’s a game mechanic”

    Generally easy since those would just be in the gameplay and be rules illogical to the story line and cutscenes, which of course this example of someone harming Kain would be, were it to be proven actually happening due to cutscene evidence, ergo, non gameplay or mechanic driven content.

    “it’s up to you to prove that he’s really just being knocked back without receiving damage”

    The snag is ive already proven hes not taking damage with my evidence that even millions of newtons of force cannot harm him, and at best in-game he just gets knocked back based on visual evidence. For my opponent to prove an inconsistency they would need to first prove the “strike” happened on Kain and was not just a player fault in the gameplay, the injury Kain was hit by, using actual evidence on Kains physical condition of course and not any other mechanics like health bars and then they may try and begin a case.

    Assuming of course, they want to try and claim their in-game mechanics trump my cutscene, FMV’s and video the developers themselves use to display the games canon directly in its purest form. Goodluck to them ho ho!

  57. Mea quidem sententia September 21, 2014 at 8:06 pm -      #57

    The point is he can be hit or he can avoid being hit, but regardless, I’m sure more players have received damage than they have not, since the latter would require enough experience to not get hit.

    If Kain is immortal, then there shouldn’t be such a thing as game over. So now you should explain what type of immortality Kain possesses. Vampires in North American folklore were immortal. Even Bram Stoker’s Dracula was immortal.

    Whatever is part of the game is part of the lore. If it exists in the universe, sorry to say, but it can’t be bifurcated. You haven’t proved the 6.2 million newtons. And again, your opponent wouldn’t need to prove any strike happened to Kain because that’s an argument from ignorance on the other end of the argument.

  58. Friendlysociopath September 21, 2014 at 8:15 pm -      #58

    “If Kain is immortal, then there shouldn’t be such a thing as game over.”

    There then would be no accomplishment to finishing the game, as you cannot possibly lose. That’s a reason Dark Souls was so well received- the difficulty made you feel like you accomplished something when you beat a boss. Gameplay is about making the game fun. The story is about making the character fun.
    Oh, Kain’s immortal because he removed himself from time or some shenanigans like that- I might be wrong but I think that was it.

    “The point is he can be hit or he can avoid being hit, but regardless, I’m sure more players have received damage than they have not, since the latter would require enough experience to not get hit.”

    This, right here, is one reason why we do not use gameplay mechanics. A character’s feats in a hypothetical reality would not change because a different person was behind the controls.

  59. Mea quidem sententia September 21, 2014 at 9:02 pm -      #59

    Friendlysociopath Post #58
    I don’t understand. Are you saying that if there isn’t a game over, then you will lack any sense of accomplishment? If that’s what you’re saying, I disagree. Sense of accomplishment is relative. I could gain a sense of accomplishment by acquiring a new item, upgrade, or ability.

    But that’s not a game mechanic. It’s simply an argument that because we don’t know if a character will be harmed or not on his/her quest, we can’t assume that he/she never has, nor can we assume that he/she has.

    However, while I understand “player dependence”, a player trying out the game the first time is bound to receive damage. It’s not like Kain is going into his adventure knowing what’s going to happen before it happens. Unless he possesses precognition.

  60. Friendlysociopath September 21, 2014 at 9:50 pm -      #60

    “Are you saying that if there isn’t a game over, then you will lack any sense of accomplishment?”

    I’m saying the sense of accomplishment would be lessened as you have completed an objectively easier task. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Harder tasks are harder, thus you have a greater sense of accomplishment when you succeed at them. That’s not arguable. The person could be deceptively weird and only enjoy losing, but that is a statistical oddity.

    Now, you can be hurt in games because players generally like to have fun when they play games as it is a recreational activity. The players have fun when the game is challenging to play but not too hard that they feel like they would have more fun doing something else. I’ve actually got a chart lying around somewhere about the optimal learning curve a game should throw at you from one of my video game industry lectures.

    “Unless he possesses precognition.”

    Well he does at one point see all of space and time so he technically does know the future.

    Also, you’re missing the point here. Because Kain can be damaged by lesser foes his canon abilities to tank better are suddenly rendered moot? If we follow this path then literally every video game character on this site loses all durability as the weakest enemy of their game is capable of damaging them- even when they canonically shrug off such blows as nothing. This is unacceptable.

  61. Kitten Lord September 22, 2014 at 4:10 am -      #61

    @Mea

    “I’m sure more players have received damage”

    Proof? Like I mentioned earlier Players are irrelevent to the canon, no matter what they do or how many game overs they may recieve the end result and intention is the same.

    “f Kain is immortal, then there shouldn’t be such a thing as game over. So now you should explain what type of immortality Kain possesses. ”

    Immortality by its very definition means one cannot die, and a game over screen is another one of those mechanics. The defiance handbook literally says neither Raziel nor Kain can die. Kains survived having the conduit of his very life taken from him before and if anything, goes on to destroy trhe most powerful of his opponents, which also despite its colossal size (country-planetary) and arrogance admits its best hope is to try and bury them both alive.

    The developers describe Kains immortality as “his nature as the scion of balance allows him to survive” so I guess if someone were to remove his powerset, nature or something, a powerful reality warper or something could kill him.

    ” we can’t assume that he/she never has”

    Of course we can, since we can see a characters history by watching the game and its storyline/canon. If the characters not hit in a cutscene or any scripted event, then the developers have shown us know factual action of said character being hit, simple.

    ” Unless he possesses precognition.”

    To an extent, he does. He uses a device called the Chronoplast chamber in Soulreaver to percieve the future or at least several different futures and what his actions can accomplish. Its not heavily explained though and he clearly does not know everything, he seems to have gotten bits and bobs and only up to a point.

    Course thats not whats important, what does Kains knowledge have to do with whether or not he can be struck and more importantl for this thread, damaged?

    As friendly says, its unacceptable to assume that the non-canon, player motivated and controlled mechanics should overule the canon, the lore and intent seen in its purest form in the lore, cutscenes and scripted events etc. You cant outright ignore cutscenes or intent just because the in-game character of every protagonist in video gaming is ruled to take damage from lesser threats.

    I still think the “bunny” earlier for Cloud is a good example, anyone whos played god of war, Devil May cry, even Metroid which I tihnk youve played (I have not) must have points where a clearly inferior creature is harming you when theres clear evidence in the story such should be less than possible.

  62. Amm0vamp1r3 September 22, 2014 at 4:50 pm -      #62

    I got to beat Force Unleashed 2 and even though Starkiller is a beast but I think Kain wins.

    -His sword is more dangerous
    -His teleportation should be able to get him out of a force choke
    -He can pull blood through Starkillers chest which would kill him

    images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110617011539/legacyofkain/images/c/cd/Defiance21GameStop.jpg

    images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110617011555/legacyofkain/images/3/31/Defiance22GameStop.jpg

    -And his many magical abilities
    -Time control
    -dimension teleportation
    -Fire
    -Lightning

  63. Mea quidem sententia September 22, 2014 at 11:48 pm -      #63

    Friendlysociopath Post #60
    All right, but I don’t see how that means that game play ignores Kain’s immortality.

    Because Kain can be damaged by lesser foes his canon abilities to tank better are suddenly rendered moot? If we follow this path then literally every video game character on this site loses all durability as the weakest enemy of their game is capable of damaging them- even when they canonically shrug off such blows as nothing. This is unacceptable.

    Well, actually, any damage one receives, even if he/she survives the attack, only means that he/she can be attacked a number of times before death. I’d say a Sarafan knight can kill Link in one blow with his long axe. Of course, I could argue that Link is more a humanoid than a human, so perhaps he can receive several hits before death.

    Kain can receive damage from Sarafan knights and Glyph knights, thus demonstrating that he’s vulnerable to long axes and broadswords, but he can receive damage numerous times before death. Also, durability depends on various things, such as the ability to withstand pointed objects, blunt trauma, extreme temperatures, &c.

    Kitten Lord Post #61
    Considering that you mention new players to the canon as being irrelevant means you’re already aware of the proof. Because players do receive damage more than they do avoid it, regardless of their skill, I see no reason to think Kain evades every attack he encounters. Not even Superman is granted that.

    Yes, I’m aware of the definition, but even jellyfish are immortal, as are bacteria. Yet, they’re capable of dying. Even Bram Stoker’s Dracula could die. Kain being the Scion of Balance makes me think of God’s explosion that Dracula survived, but had no effect on him for being God’s chosen one. If Kain couldn’t die, there wouldn’t be a game over.

    See, what it seems you’re failing to understand is that behind every game mechanic, there’s something that isn’t a mechanic because it is being applied to the reality of that series.

    Please. That’s what we call an argument from ignorance and an argument from silence. You’re asserting that because we don’t see x occur in a storyline or cut-scenes, &c., it must mean the developers intended that y is never hit. On the other hand, considering Kain can be harmed, the developers had in mind that Kain is vulnerable to Sarafan and Glyph knights.

    It’s unacceptable to assume that events occurring during game play means it’s not canon. Honestly, even if a player avoids every attack given by his enemies, the fact that Kain can receive damage if hit suggests that Kain’s durability is not 6.2 million newtons.

    That rabbit wasn’t an ordinary rabbit. The size is as big as a human. Again, I don’t see how Cloud’s ability to destroy skyscraper-sized objects means he has extreme defense.

    I have discussed this before with someone named TheBlackCat before and brought up the issues with Samus receiving damage during game play and that it’s just a game mechanic, but considering walking into spiky objects would be very painful, due to the tiny surface area. I apply this shit to Samus as well, believe it or not.

    Anyway, I agree, Kain wins this.

  64. Kitten Lord September 23, 2014 at 5:55 am -      #64

    @Mea

    “Kain can receive damage from Sarafan knights and Glyph knights, thus demonstrating that he’s vulnerable to long axes and broadswords, but he can receive damage numerous times before death. Also, durability depends on various things, such as the ability to withstand pointed objects, blunt trauma, extreme temperatures, &c.”

    Only in-game during the mechanics though, in the cutscenes which are not covered, touched in any way for the players game playing benefit he is invulenrable to damage far superior to anything a Sarafan knight could put out. Also, when you say Glyph knights, I assume your refering to Blood omen 2, itst rue hes yet to involve in that game so if you were refering to young Kain then yes your right, he is not quite as invulnerable then, since he has yet to acquire the elders resistant skin and more importantly, the feat in question.

    As for the varieties of durability, it often comes down to pressure. Its not a question of whether one can withstand pointed objects or blunt trauma, more about can that person withstand the pressure of the object impacting, in Kains case he has an extreme feat, I need not calculate how much pressure 6 million newtons in the point of raziels claw would put out I am sure for you to realise that no matter what your hitting him with, sharp blades or blunt force through say a punch (ridiculous force needed….ridonkulous)

    “new players to the canon as being irrelevant ”

    No I meant all players are irrelevent to the canon, players do not, at least as far as Legacy of Kain is concerned write the canon of the game. Their actions are inconsequential so if their hit, its irrelevent and cannot be proven as happened or not.

    “I see no reason to think Kain evades every attack he encounters. ”

    Well no, otherwise I would not have a feat to suggest he is so durable, problem with Kain is he does not have to avoid it. Also dont forget unlike your superman example, most of Kains foes are mortal, even when young Kain could travel at half the speed of sound and all vamps in LoK are generally superior to mortals let alone Kain as a fully evolved and amped Elder, so its not unrealistic to suggest Kain could avoid or kill any opponent before hes harmed.

    “If Kain couldn’t die, there wouldn’t be a game over.”

    Weve gone over gameplay mechanics, of course theres a game over. The devs specifcally say Kain cannot be killed, how can you argue against that just because theres a game over screen for the players benefit?

    “Please. That’s what we call an argument from ignorance and an argument from silence. You’re asserting that because we don’t see x occur in a storyline or cut-scenes, &c., it must mean the developers intended that y is never hit. On the other hand, considering Kain can be harmed, the developers had in mind that Kain is vulnerable to Sarafan and Glyph knights.”

    Not at all, we have the entire legacy of Kain history in front of us in the game, thats all there is to legacy of Kain. So it cant be ignorance to claim such since I can tell you, it never happens, I am informed, not ignorant. The fact it never happens, proves it hasnt happened, its as simple as that. You cant argue he can be harmed by someone if he has not.

    ” fact that Kain can receive damage ”

    Raziels claw strike disagrees with you though, you know the canon cutscene, that your trying to apparently overule with mechanics and rules made purely for the players enjoyment.

    “That rabbit wasn’t an ordinary rabbit.”

    Are you then saying you would discount it if it was an ordinary rabbit?

    ” I don’t see how Cloud’s ability to destroy skyscraper-sized objects means he has extreme defense.”

    Lets say he tanked a blow, for theoretical value you understand of skyscraper proportions. Would you still be argueing that rabbit harming him is logical? Based clearly on its weight and size it would never output that much force, and without feats we cant say it can…so…

    “considering walking into spiky objects would be very painful, due to the tiny surface area.”

    Well you would have to break it down to determine the logic, we would have to determine the best feats for Samus’ suit, then find out how fast one would have to be moving to hit said spiky object for it to penetrate.

    The same can be said for Kain, we know that Raziels claw outputs X due to the fact he performs feats consistently with his claws that require said force. The same movement he uses on the block he pretty much does ot Kain, only with more anger and potentially more force, needless to say though Kain was left unharmed, therefore as a summary of this discussion it is illogical to suggest something like a man with a sword is going to harm him unless we assume their wielding swords with super small, molecule disrupting surface areas or something crazy like that, but I dont like making extra assumptions.

    @Ammo

    Agreed Ammo, my only worry though is that Starkiller is pretty quick, reactionwise I mean he can fight with the best of the force users right? Combining precog and a lot of speed, EU force users are pretty dangerous, I think Kains hax would overcome him but based on distance between the two characters (not sure how far away they are, but London is a fairly complicated and varied environment) I wonder if Starkiller has a chance to close the gap.

    Also, if Starkiller can quickly and easily within an instant (lets say less than about .2 seconds) launch his full force ability, and I mean stardestroyer moving force ability into Kain he could at the very least injure or knock him out, giving him time to close in, like you said Kain could avoid such a fate through teleportation and mist form but still, could be a possible occurrence.

  65. Amm0vamp1r3 September 23, 2014 at 2:43 pm -      #65

    @KL

    Meh he didn’t seem all to quick to me, yeah he can block the laser guns the storm troopers use. And with power scaling ( which is up for debate) kain is an arrow/crossbow timer. So I don’t think speed will be that big of a difference.

    But that’s off gameplay, Idk how quick starkiller lore wise.

  66. Mea quidem sententia September 23, 2014 at 11:15 pm -      #66

    I think you’re misunderstanding what I’m saying, Kitten Lord, but I’m going to bring up two things and just ignore everything else.

    1. The type of metal that cube is made of is an assumption. For example, if it was aluminum, the force behind Raziel’s claws would be equal to 10 tons-force.

    2. Kain is never stabbed by Raziel in that cut-scene in the same way Raziel stabs into that metallic cube. So saying that the cut-scene says otherwise and even assuming that Kain has that durability is erroneous.

  67. Kitten Lord September 24, 2014 at 3:16 am -      #67

    @Mea

    “For example, if it was aluminum”

    And if it was made of the strongest material in the universe or some sort of quantum star matter it would be significantly higher than the number we have. The estimation for the stone, just like the estimation calc itself is not perfect, I never said it was but since 90% of fictions do not label every piece of rock in their games or stories thats what we have to go on.

    If it was aluminium it would have sparked, grown hot or scraped, it did not. I dont know all the properties of aluminium but I am pretty certain based on the rest of the game the devs did not intend for you to belive that their muddy brown, heavy, scraping rock that raziel pulled out of a stone wall just happened to be aluminium.

    “Kain is never stabbed by Raziel in that cut-scene in the same way”

    When faceing the cube Raziel swings his arms, one after the other into it to claw into it, when faceing Kain in the cutscene, he swings both his claws at Kain, in a barely different fashion. Finally though, we have something we can argue, since you disagree apparently with hos Raziel attacks Kain/the block can you further evaluate what you interpret from that same cutscene?

    “the cut-scene says otherwise”

    Like I said, I see otherwise, my interpretation was that if anything Raziel is attacking Kain with his claws with far more gusto and anger than he did the block. He cant sheathe his claws so theres no chance of him not using them is there….

    What makes the cutscene even more useful to me is that the devs clearly specifcally intended for Kain to be shown as nigh invulnerable to Raziel, observe;

    This is Kain in the original SR 1 cutscene before it was retconned;

    As you can see originally Kain was greatly weakened, gripping his chest in pain and what not. Injured by Raziel, but then we have this scene after it was changed by the devs;

    Where Kain is clawed without a scratch, This raziel is arguably even stronger than the one moving the blocks because hes devoured the souls of his brothers which generally amps him, theres also the fact we know his upper limit strength wise is higher, due to that massive obelisk, larger than the stones he can flip.

    Like I said, I see little difference between that slash and what he does on the stone blocks, only hes angier this time and therefore more likely to use more of his force. Raziel is essentially using the same muscles, the same surface area and the same speed, and therefore the same forces and pressures on Kain if not more unless you can argue otherwise?

    Unless your suggesting Raziel having his claws horizontal, as opposed to open which appears to be the only difference is somehow greatly reducing the force?

    Ths is Kain at the end, clearly the Devs intended for him to be basically unharmed as opposed to greatly weakened/wounded. So I am argueing not only the calcs and the logic from the blows but also Developer intent. They specifically showed rains of blows on Kain and then him just standing almost triumphant over a Raziel lieong the ground as opposed to Kain being the one whos wounded. Like they wanted to show how far Kain is beyond Raziel at this point.

    This gap is shortened a few by Defiance though.

  68. Mea quidem sententia September 24, 2014 at 9:58 am -      #68

    Kitten Lord
    Well, all you can go by is that Raziel pierced the object with his claws. The other factor is unknown, so attempting to quantify the object is rendered useless.

    You can try to explain why the cube cannot be made of aluminum, but I can say the same if it was made of steel or some other metal. That much force would have heated it up, regardless. It didn’t, likely because the devs didn’t put that into consideration, or because it would be time consuming, or whatever other reason.

    Not all games show what they should. Samus runs at supersonic speeds, but the games don’t show her producing a shock wave. The exception seems to be Metroid: Other M. So, we have nothing to work with.

    The difference is Raziel claws at Kain. With the cube, he thrusts his claws into the cube. If I swung a dagger at you and cut the skin, it would be much different if I took that same dagger and thrust it into your chest. Thrusting and swinging aren’t the same. Taking the tip versus the entire thing aren’t the same.

    The point is, Raziel never thrusts his claws into Kain. I will leave anyone who watches these to make up their own minds. I know I won’t convince you, so I’ll take my leave now.

  69. Kitten Lord September 24, 2014 at 1:10 pm -      #69

    @Mea

    “The other factor is unknown”

    Not really, we know its stone based on sound, and other physical attributes. We know its used as a building material and a relatively strong one to make the structures in the game, so we know it can only be one of a number of building materials. My source, who came up with the initial numbers mentioned how if it was a harder stone it would shatter into millions of piecies, so ihe suggested its likely limestone, which is a fair estimate based on the facts given. Powers of deduction suggests its limestone or a stone similiar to its properties, its not completly unknown.

    “Not all games show what they should”

    No but the intent is obvious in most cases, in this case Raziel is clearly moving a block of stone by piercing it with his claws, that leaves very few assumptions left to what sort of stone it is because its unlikely to be too soft or too hard, see the deductions made above.

    “Thrusting and swinging aren’t the same”

    Who said it was? At the same time, someone jabbing with a punch or swinging with a punch, or thrusting/swinging with a knife does not cancel out a huge percentage of the force or pressures, a knife is still sharp just like Raziels claws in both cases, the end result is Kain is completely indestructible to it.

    Like I said ive made concessions as well, by virtue of not being able to calc it ive ignored the fact Raziel would have had to liquefy or powder the stone, not just move it to bore into it like he does, since we see no movement or breaks/cracks in the block to signify Raziel pushing the material. This would, needless to say make the feat even more powerful, since moving stone would suggest less force than it being vaporized.

    “The point is, Raziel never thrusts his claws into Kain.”

    “I know I won’t convince you, ”

    Dont be a defeatist, please explain the mechanics your trying to convey about how Raziel not thrusting, but swinging would somehow be vastly lower in force/pressure? How would this change pressure if his claws remain the same? Dont forget, in your knife example, the surface area is different between the tip of the knife and the edge, while Raziels claw tips were used, with the same surface area in both attacks.

    On the other end, wouldnt Raziel being angrier, puting more force into his leap and finally having such high strength/force in him in general based on greater feats past those cubes (the obelisk) also add to the power of the final blow? I think it would.

  70. Mea quidem sententia September 25, 2014 at 1:13 am -      #70

    Kitten Lord Post #69
    Considering fiction makes up different elements, it wouldn’t be easy to consider what that cube is made of. What you said is reasonable, though. If we went with hardness similar to limestone, then on the Mohs hardness scale, that falls in 3 to 4. We could assume 3.5 for simplicity.

    Based on Brinell 10 mm Standard 500 kgf (HB 500), that would make the Brinell hardness number 189. (The link is below.) This would make the force 1,164,561 N, or 130.9 tons of force. The number isn’t as ridiculously large, and from my other calculation with Kain destroying those stalagmites, which was calced at being 164 short tons, that seems reasonable.

    My point about the scratching versus the thrusting is that Raziel’s entire claws did not thrust into Kain like it did with the cube. This should be clear as day. Scratch some sort of material with a kitchen knife and then thrust that same knife into the same object. More damage is dealt with the latter.

    In spite of Raziel lunging at Kain and not holding back, he doesn’t apply the same technique on Kain as he did with the cube. That’s all I’m saying. There’s nothing else to be discussed about that because it’s pretty self-evident.

    Aside from that, I suppose I’ll see what your thoughts are about the different calculation. And yes, I treated D as being equal to d.

    www.cidraprecisionservices.com/mohs-conversion.html

  71. Kitten Lord September 25, 2014 at 5:28 am -      #71

    @Mea

    ” entire claws did not thrust into Kain like it did with the cube.”

    Well no, that does not change the force though. You can use the same force to use your example with a knife to both thrust and slash with it, the resulting injury/damage is based on surface area and contact. Kain surviving the tip of the claw is the most impressive it could be based on the claw, had he been hit by the rest of the cone, it would be irrelevent because obviously the flat, relatively smooth surface that makes up the cone is not as sharp.

    ” he doesn’t apply the same technique on Kain as he did with the cube. That’s all I’m saying. ”

    Well yes but explain how this changes anything though? Are you saying the force is ridiculous different, if so, why? How much less force would an angry raziel, leaping into and swinging both his claws in quick succession be without being apparently holding back compared to him simply idly thrusting his claws into a block.

    Course I cant disagree with your number here;

    “Based on Brinell 10 mm Standard 500 kgf (HB 500), that would make the Brinell hardness number 189. (The link is below.) This would make the force 1,164,561 N, or 130.9 tons of force. The number isn’t as ridiculously large, and from my other calculation with Kain destroying those stalagmites, which was calced at being 164 short tons, that seems reasonable.”

    This sounds fair reasoning to me. Now to find pressure, using the same area for raziels claws as has always done, which is 1mm squared per tip, and just for this calc for ease ill assume he claws kain with just his forefinger hitting him. The calcluation to find pressure is;

    Force (1164561) divided by surface area squared (0.0000001 meters squared) gives me Kains resistance per square mm as about 11.6 million mega pascals, 31x the pressure at the core of the earth.

    Which as I said in another thread, if you want to punch Kain, dont bother unless your superman! lol

  72. Mea quidem sententia September 25, 2014 at 10:38 am -      #72

    Kitten Lord Post #71
    I can use the same force, sure, but it’s not piercing, so it’s not going to deal as much damage.

    Let me try to explain. I could be wrong, but it seems intuitive and it can be demonstrated with the experiment I gave you. Let’s find the pressure using the same formula that we’ve been using.

    You said the tip of Raziel’s claw is assumed to be 1 mm^2. Since the tip of his claws only made contact, rather than his entire claw thrusting into Kain, D would equal 20 mm and d would equal 1 mm. The calculator will square these. We’ll also use 189 for the BHN. You end up with 1,560 N, or 350.75 pounds of force.

    So if I do what you did, 1,560 N / 0.001^2 would be equal to 1,560,000,000 pascals (1.56 terapascals). This is a step below the calculation you ended up with (1.16 petapascals). That’s still pretty high, though. According to Wolfram | Alpha, that’s approximately 20 times the tensile strength of a carbon nanotube.

  73. Kitten Lord September 25, 2014 at 12:12 pm -      #73

    @Mea

    2I can use the same force, sure, but it’s not piercing”

    Hm, how to explain this. Piercing is merely a question of surface area, I could slash with a sharper knife than you are thrusting with to get higher pressure. Does that make sense? In this example concerning Raziel, his claw tip is the same in both his slash and stab.

    “You said the tip of Raziel’s claw is assumed to be 1 mm^2. Since the tip of his claws only made contact, rather than his entire claw thrusting into Kain, D would equal 20 mm and d would equal 1 mm. The calculator will square these. We’ll also use 189 for the BHN. You end up with 1,560 N, or 350.75 pounds of force.”

    This is probably just me being a lamen but I dont understand, would this calculation be necessery after the last one made? Also, does this calculation not assume that Raziel managed to actually pierce 1mm squared into Kain?

    What is the difference mechanically to your calculation here and the one above?

    “So if I do what you did, 1,560 N / 0.001^2 would be equal to 1,560,000,000 pascals (1.56 terapascals). This is a step below the calculation you ended up with (1.16 petapascals). That’s still pretty high, though. According to Wolfram | Alpha, that’s approximately 20 times the tensile strength of a carbon nanotube.”

    This is interesting though, what is a carbon nanotube exactly? ive heard of it before but it may be useful to understand what it is mechnically, of course, if my previous number is correct, then a square mm of kains skin is thousands times the tensile strength of a carbon nanotube no?

    Quite a prospect. I guess the previous calc I understood more since in my mind, we were simply finding out the force required for what Raziel actually did, which was put his claw almost whole into limestone and then from there, find pressure at the tip of his claw.

    Are you reversing this to find out Kains tenstile strength in a simpler manner?

  74. Mea quidem sententia September 25, 2014 at 11:39 pm -      #74

    Kitten Lord #73
    It does make sense because a sharper point will have a smaller point. But in this case, we’re working with Raziel’s claws having 1 mm^2 tips. However, a wider diameter will reduce the pressure. 1 mm^2 will cut easier than 20 mm^2.

    For future references, it’s “layman”. “Layman’s terms”, an idiom for explaining in simpler words. Our calculation is different in this case because the part where Raziel thrusts his claws into the cube, D is equal to d. With the slashing, D is 20 mm^2 and d is 1 mm^2.

    The calculation assumes Raziel slashed Kain with 1 mm^2. No doubt, there is some piercing because that 1 mm^2 tip has to go somewhere, so Kain’s epidermis would be what’s slashed at, rather than the majority of Raziel’s claws.

    To put it simply, what cut Kain is 1 mm^2, not 20 mm^2 like Raziel did with the cube.

    I’m not sure what you’re asking. If by “mechanically” you mean to ask what’s the difference between my calculation and yours, it’s that I have D as 20 mm^2 and d as 1 mm^2. If that’s not what you’re asking, you’ll need to clarify.

    A carbon nanotube, as far as I’m aware, is carbon at the nanometer shaped like a tube. It’s supposed to be extremely durable, the most durable man-made thing to date. In other words, if this calculation is to be accepted, Kain’s dermis is harder than diamond and 20 times harder than a carbon nanotube.

    I cannot say that I can refute the idea that the cube is at least as hard as limestone, though. It is a very logical point. It reminds me of my discussion with someone named TheBlackCat and how he pointed out that the fact that Space Pirates can survive in magma means their skin is more durable than any known organism in our universe. (No known organism, nor material in our universe can dwell in magma or lava.)

    Of course, in the back of my mind, I feel like there’s something there that’s bothering me. I can’t figure it out, but if these calculations are acceptable to you, then I guess we’re done here. That I was able to calculate it myself and considered your point about the cube’s hardness, I can’t think of anything else to offer. I suppose I’d need to go through all the Soul Reaver games and see if there is any conflict.

    Until then.

  75. Kitten Lord September 26, 2014 at 5:20 am -      #75

    Thank you for the discussion all the same, ill clean up the respect thread a bit with these new calculations now because as Ragnorke pointed out earlier, a number of calculations and some means is confusing and not necesserily helpful, I think the calcs we did just now over the last couple of posts makes the most sense.

    I do have another question if you will indulge me, how much stronger is bone than skin?

    If I wanted to find out Kains bone strength, lets say his a rib in his rib cage, or a bone in his arm or even his skull. Just generally how much stronger is bone in a human, proportional to the skin?

    Using this table;

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_tensile_strength

    Skin (20 MPa) is 6.5 times weaker than bone (130 MPa)

    Course I dont know how to scale up from there. Since our previous calculations are working on pressure/area. If a square mm of kains skin is around 20x stromger than the tensile strength of a carbon nano tube, how would one find out the square area of bone, and more importantly when tensile strength is considered, the cubic volume of the bone?

  76. Mea quidem sententia September 26, 2014 at 10:20 am -      #76

    Kitten Lord
    You’re welcome. I’m glad we were able to come to a consensus. But, I noticed an error on my part. So, I took the other calculation and I said it was 1.56 TPa, but checking 1,560 N / 1 mm^2 again, I ended up with 1.56 GPa. Not to worry, though. This still means Kain’s skin is harder than diamond, which according to Wolfram | Alpha, is 0.2 times diamond formation pressure (10 GPa)

    As for skin and bone, if skin is 20 MPa and bone is 130 MPa, then by taking 130 MPa / 20 MPa, you end up with 6.5. Then by multiplying it by 100, since 6.5 needs to be 100%, you end up with 650%. So if I’m correct, bone is 650% stronger than skin.

    Next, going with 1.56 GPa, if that’s 0.2 times more than diamond formation pressure, and if Kain’s skin can take 1.56 GPa, then 1.56 * 6.5, then Kain’s bones can withstand up to 10.14 GPa, which is 1.01 times diamond formation pressure. If all this is accurate math, of course.

  77. Mea quidem sententia September 26, 2014 at 12:32 pm -      #77

    I think we’ll need to consider what tensile strength is. According to Wikipedia, tensile strength “is the maximum stress that a material can withstand while being stretched or pulled before failing or breaking.”

    If this isn’t being applied to Kain, since there isn’t any stretching or pulling involved, I’m not sure if this would be the best method of determining Kain’s durability.

    I think we’ll need to examine this further, but don’t worry, I’m not denying Kain’s durability. I just want to make sure it’s the correct form of durability we’re talking about.

  78. Kitten Lord September 26, 2014 at 1:29 pm -      #78

    Not unless you maybe count Kains skin stretching as the claw hits but you cant really see it happen, the scale is too small at raziels tip, its not like you get a close up, assuming it does move at all. The point is this feat simply suggests Kain is undaa,aged by what Raziel dishes out, ime sure if someone a lot more powerful tried the manouver, and I mean massively stronger enough so to overpower Kains tank then the skin would likely tear.

    Raziel just cant “test” Kains tensile strength properly because whatever hes doing is just not enough.

    Ive just displayed it in the respect thread as the least Kain can tank.

    Just call it pressure resistance if nothing else. So your saying Kains bone should be 650% stronger than skin?

    Needless to say, you need a lot more force/pressure than likely any non cosmic/celestial/planetary body in the universe can output to cause a scratch on Kain, making him relatively indestructible.

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