Team Anime Comics Vs Team Video Game Books

Team Anime Comics Vs Team Video Game Books

Brought to you by sadot06

Team Anime Comics:
Kaguya Otsutsuki (Naruto)
Sosuke Aizen (Bleach)
Killy (Blame!)
Bills (Dragon Ball Z)
Spawn
Ghost Rider (Marvel)
Doctor Fate (DC Comics)
Martian Manhunter

Going up against

Team Video Game Books:

God Emperor of Mankind (Warhammer 40K)
Richard Rahl (Sword of Truth)
Rand al’ Thor (Wheel of Time)
Darth Nihilus (Star Wars)
Bayonetta
Yasha (Asura’s Wrath)
Shadow the Hedgehog
Overlord Laharl (Disgaea)

Fight takes place in Mordor during the events of the third Lord of the Rings film. The starting point for both teams are the Mountains of Shadow. The first to secure the One Ring and return to the Mountains of Shadow wins for their team.

The One Ring will be defended by:

World War Hulk

Doomsday

Sinestro

Most recent incarnations.

Shadow can transform into his Super form three times.

Time can be slowed but not fully or nearly stopped.

Who wins?

Related Posts:



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620 Comments on "Team Anime Comics Vs Team Video Game Books"

  1. Friendlysociopath August 31, 2014 at 5:27 pm -      #101

    “Funnily enough, NO ONE HAS ANSWERED IF HE CAN RESIST MIND CONTROL OR NOT.
    I’v asked about 3 times now. Someone fucking answer. Otherwise Laharls a nonfactor.”

    It’s a little hard to pick out ONE THING in the starting barrage of comments, not to mention I think about 3 people here are actually familiar with Disgaea outside of matches, learn some patience man.

    Can I get some facts for how the mind control works? My answer is no, for Laharl at least.
    In Disgaea beings capable of warping reality occur every so often, each time the heroes have managed to break this hold over them via willpower and nothing else. (Okay Valvatorez has sardines but the man is walking “fuck you I have sardines” incarnate so he’s iffy)
    Example: Warping every demon in the netherworld to go against their very nature (fight to prove the strongest) and instead turns them into peace-loving hippies. The only ones who don’t succumb are the heroes simply because they’re too strong-willed/stupid to be turned. Laharl is a mix of the two…
    Disgaea characters are actually ancient beings, they routinely kill their bodies to reincarnate themselves to become stronger.

  2. Epicazeroth August 31, 2014 at 5:29 pm -      #102

    So wouldn’t most people here just disintegrate due to not having that strong a physical body? Or at least several. Lex Luthor said Superman – whom he had just called possibly the largest source of energy in the galaxy – would last around 10 minutes against Doomsday. So who here has Superman-level durability? Because after the “FTL blitz shitstorm” (awesome name for it BTW, Xornell) wouldn’t everyone not going FTL just die? So really Hulk and possibly Doomsday are non-factors as well. DD I think can react to FTL, but they can go around him; only Sinestro would be able to intercept anyone going for the Ring.

  3. Xornell August 31, 2014 at 5:30 pm -      #103

    “We’re talking new52 Sinistro here aren’t we?”

    Yes. New 52 Sinestro is currently hosting Parallax.

    “Eh, you’re scaling parallax to a GL feat… not really viable… And wasn’t that pre-crises anyways?”

    1. Lmao wut. They’re basically the same source of energy. We’ve already seen that GL’s and SC members are practically equal in combat and energy output. Why would Sinestro, one of the most skilled lanterns to ever live, not be able to duplicate a feat performed by a few mooks when he has near unlimited energy inside of him?
    2. Ffs, no. It wasn’t pre-crisis, it was pre-flashpoint. It sounds like nitpicking, but those are two entirely separate and very different things. And as I’ve already pointed out, major events didn’t change much.

    “But from the scans you can see he was holding his own.”

    You can? I mean, he was fighting back but it’s one image of him in combat. Hardly a long fight sequence.

    “Well, he’s able to hold off people who drag minds into the World of Dream on a regular basis, so it’s pretty competent. He also got into a battle of wills with Satan, and he held his own.”

    Feats from either of those things?

    “He does this every time he uses magic, so it’s pretty common for him to not feel fear.”

    Not ever? He has no concept of fear?

    “Well…how quickly does it act?”

    Instantly for most things with normal durability. People would burst into ashes in his presence. Same thing with technology.

  4. Friendlysociopath August 31, 2014 at 5:40 pm -      #104

    “Not ever? He has no concept of fear?”

    From what I remember he sort of goes into a trance-state. Think Jedi-ish. Early on he describes it as taking emotions and tossing them into a void.

    Edit: Can anyone give me some info on what Shadows does in his super-form? I can field Disgaea questions but my knowledge is inferior for everyone else here.

  5. Epicazeroth August 31, 2014 at 5:43 pm -      #105

    @Friendly: “warping reality…
    Disgaea characters are actually ancient beings, they routinely kill their bodies to reincarnate themselves to become stronger.”
    This is not at all telepathy. Resistance to reality-warping =/= resistance to mindrape.

    And Rand has to get there right? Sinestro won’t wait for him to walk up and prepare, assuming he lives long enough to walk anywhere.
    ===
    @Aelfinn: “Well…how quickly does it act?”
    Jets disintegrating as soon as they get within range: static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3852458-superman+-+doomed+001-003.jpg
    Affects Wonder Woman and destroys her sword: static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3852479-superman+-+doomed+001-019.jpg
    Destroys Steel’s armor in a few seconds: static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3852478-superman+-+doomed+001-017.jpg
    Specifics here: static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/12/120679/3852472-superman+-+doomed+001-007.jpg

  6. OberHerr August 31, 2014 at 5:47 pm -      #106

    The mind-rape works in that they go into your mind and can take over it, mess it up, or otherwise incapacitate you. And if Laharl has no defense….then he is likely dead. Or out of the match. And with him, Team 2’s chances. Rand isn’t likely to matter, once again, due to him being speedblitzed. Just like GEoM’s mind-rape won’t be able to work for the same reasons.

  7. Jake_Uzumaki August 31, 2014 at 5:57 pm -      #107

    Plus if we’re talking prep…Kaguya mind rapes Middle Earth with Infinite Tsukinomi and well…shit just goes downhill from there when the giant tree shows up that dwarfs everything in Mordor several times over and starts eating peoples souls…like all the yummy souls on team 2 besides Yasha Larhal and possibly Shadow.

  8. Friendlysociopath August 31, 2014 at 6:01 pm -      #108

    “The mind-rape works in that they go into your mind and can take over it, mess it up, or otherwise incapacitate you.”

    So having a strong enough mind to block reality-warping isn’t enough to block telepathy? Allllllllrighty then

    I’ll check on the telepathy, most of the Disgaea crowd literally just will themselves not to succumb to that sort of thing but I need to do research but my ride is leaving so I must follow

  9. OberHerr August 31, 2014 at 6:14 pm -      #109

    Well, it depends on how the reality-warping works. It might, but I dunno. Like, does anyone use any attacks in the universe that specifically affect your mind?

  10. Ragnorke August 31, 2014 at 6:22 pm -      #110

    “It’s a little hard to pick out ONE THING in the starting barrage of comments, not to mention I think about 3 people here are actually familiar with Disgaea outside of matches, learn some patience man.”

    Problem is, no one even acknowledged my question. All 3 times i asked it.
    Shouting it out seems to be the only way to get people to pay attention to something, in cluster fucks like these.

    “Example: Warping every demon in the netherworld to go against their very nature (fight to prove the strongest) and instead turns them into peace-loving hippies. The only ones who don’t succumb are the heroes simply because they’re too strong-willed/stupid to be turned.”

    That kinda sounds like PiS… but… can you post them by any chance?
    I’ll try and find MMHs feats.

  11. Jake_Uzumaki August 31, 2014 at 6:25 pm -      #111

    The thing is that depending on the situation there’s going to be three people hitting team 2 with mind rape at one time, each one with a different kind that works differently.

  12. Ragnorke August 31, 2014 at 6:36 pm -      #112

    “Ffs, no. It wasn’t pre-crisis, it was pre-flashpoint. It sounds like nitpicking, but those are two entirely separate and very different things. And as I’ve already pointed out, major events didn’t change much.”

    But events did change nonetheless… Can you prove that specific event didn’t change?
    And before you ask me to prove that it DID change, that would be trying to prove a negative, which is impossible to do.
    So the burden lies with you here.

    I’m not calling you a liar or anything. I just wanna know if you actually know for sure, or if you’re just assuming.

  13. Ranger Lowk August 31, 2014 at 6:38 pm -      #113

    Iirc Manhunter got into the minds of a room full of green lanterns, put info into their head then erased his being there from all their minds. So willpower alone might not be an issue.

  14. Jake_Uzumaki August 31, 2014 at 6:39 pm -      #114

    slightly off topic but I feel like Kaguya and Aizen’s most powerful forms need to be a tag team…the question is who could fight them fairly.

  15. Alpha or Omega August 31, 2014 at 6:50 pm -      #115

    So can anyone counter Super Shadow’s time travel?
    Really, no one countered this a page ago.

  16. Ragnorke August 31, 2014 at 6:54 pm -      #116

    “So can anyone counter Super Shadow’s time travel?”

    How fast and effectively can he do it? meaning… can you actually provide the feat please?
    Chances are MMH can get the ring and back before Shadow twitches. Or he can simply be mind-wiped into thinking he’s a dog.

  17. CH1C4N0444 is allergic to bullets August 31, 2014 at 6:56 pm -      #117

    “He has DoS feats”

    Wasn’t that PreFP-PostC though? Unless DoS means something other than Death of Superman?
    =
    “I dunno. Parallax has some hax going on. And I doubt either team has enough hax they can activate quickly enough to not die.”

    Mostly talking DD and Hulk.
    =
    “Hulk’s a non-factor. Sinestro is MFTL and Doomsday is fast as shit.”

    O, I know Hulk’s a nonfactor, which is why I mentioned that it’s specifically Hulk who lacks that problem. If only Hulk had his Celestial tech and the Unipower while being WB….
    =
    Worldbreaker+UniPower+Celestial Tech+Doomsday Virus Infection+Yellow Lantern ring… SDlkfhsdalfhlasdhfknsdal;fh;KJFLDSAHFKJ….
    =
    “1. Where is she going to TP them away to that they won’t have a say in the fight?”

    To another dimension.
    =
    “2. > Implying she’s going to survive the FTL blitz shitstorm that will go down.”

    “3. > Implying she’ll survive Doomsday’s instakill field which was encompassing quite a bit of area by the time Supes killed him.”

    She doesn’t have to be near him to teleport him away.
    =
    “Oh? Which ones are those? The only characters I can think of that are close are MM, maybe bills and maybe Laharl. No one else is even close.”

    Those three, Yasha, Spawn, Hulk, GR if he goes Zarthos, and Spawn. So, mostly Team 1 and Defenders. Ok, so maybe no most.

    Could be wrong, usually am. *shrugs* Probably am overestimating them. From what I understood of what’s been said round the Pile they’re up there.
    =
    “Then you’ve vastly overestimated her speed and durability”

    Yea, probably. It happens.
    =
    “I can get the scan if you want, but they contained a galaxy busting explosion. Now imagine that, except instead of a handful of lanterns, you have the source of their power and he’s fully charged.”

    I remember vaguely a scan that you showed of that. So, yes, scan please.
    =
    “Again, implying that she’ll survive long enough to use it is a bit of a stretch.”

    True, but IIRC she can’t really “die” per say, which is why they were trying to seal her away.
    =
    “There’s a fun thought.”

    O yes please.
    =
    “That’s kind of exactly what the Phantom zone is. So yes.”

    Ok, can he teleport to more than one dimension though? Because the only reason Obitio was able to go anywhwere besides his own dimension and the one’s Kaguya forced him into was by locking unto her or something.
    =
    “The Phantom Zone IS another dimension. Everytime he teleports he is moving into another Dimension. He’d might not be able to go back to the dimension he’d be leaving or traveling to ones he hasn’t been to before but it should do for getting him out.”

    So, can she still dump him/it into another random dimension and leave him?
    =
    “He was uncomfortable but doesn’t seem to be to adversely effected”

    Alright, cool. thanks for the correction.
    =
    “Lul wut? Did you really just say most people here are supes level +1?
    Corrention: Most people here are a nonfactor. A couple of them are supes +1.”

    Yea, jeez, I could be wrong… It’s not like it hasn’t happened before.
    =
    “In one of the older Naruto threads Naruto’s firepower with a single tailed beast ball was calculated as 11.98 Gigatons..”

    He got country level by the end of the series, just before Kaguya appeared Madara sent a bunch of country sized meteorites that Sasuke and Naruto cut in half/blew up.
    =
    “Can you prove that specific event didn’t change?”

    I’m pretty sure it did. IIRC when DD first showed up in N52 Supes and WW didn’t know what they were dealing with. That was before he went all “disintegrate aura” on things.
    =
    “slightly off topic but I feel like Kaguya and Aizen’s most powerful forms need to be a tag team…the question is who could fight them fairly.”

    Anything that can deal with haxness would work.

  18. Ragnorke August 31, 2014 at 7:01 pm -      #118

    Just in case anyone is interested, Jennifer Lawrence photos were leaked. *awkwardly looks at everyone… silently walks away*

  19. Jake_Uzumaki August 31, 2014 at 7:07 pm -      #119

    @CH1C4N04444
    I didn’t know if that feat had been calculated if anyone is able to calc that feat it would be helpful.


    On Shadow’s time travel…I checked the Sonic wiki(though not sure how accurate it is)
    Neither his page sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Shadow_the_Hedgehog

    nor his Super Shadow page
    sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Shadow

    mention the ability for him to time travel

  20. Aelfinn August 31, 2014 at 7:10 pm -      #120

    “Feats from either of those things?”

    I’m not entirely sure what you expect. Experienced Dreamers can forcibly drag the mind of someone sleeping into an alternate dimension, or even a fragment of an alternate dimension, and then kill/maim/take over their minds from there. This being an alternate dimension where what happens to the body your mind creates happens to you in the real world.

    The Satan-guy instantly drove over 100 people insane when they effectively put him in prison, and he effectively put a curse on the male source of magic that would eventually drive anyone who used it insane. The Satan guy was also causing the very fabric of all reality to shudder, and he was still imprisoned.

    Rand also was able to deal with an insane man rambling in his head for a year. Rand seems to have some kind of Light/Creator-power protecting his mind from the curse, as well.
    =
    “Not ever? He has no concept of fear?”

    He knows fear, yeah, but when he uses magic he has to enter a state of mind wherein he has no/barely-any emotion. There’s a monster in WoT that can freeze hardened veterans in fear just by staring at them, and the Void allows Rand to just utterly ignore that ability. Rand uses his magic a lot, btw.
    =
    “Instantly for most things with normal durability. People would burst into ashes in his presence. Same thing with technology.”

    Lol, rough. I guess he could pick it up with his magical TK, if he needed to, though.
    =
    How fast is everyone on Team 1? Because this: www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDSSORfR4Is#t=257 is at the very least thousands of times FTL. Laharl is pretty frickin’ fast.

  21. OberHerr August 31, 2014 at 7:13 pm -      #121

    “Just in case anyone is interested, Jennifer Lawrence photos were leaked.”

    I should hope they return to a solidified state. Otherwise, we shall not be able to see her anymore!

  22. Alpha or Omega August 31, 2014 at 7:13 pm -      #122

    “How fast and effectively can he do it? meaning… can you actually provide the feat please?”
    /
    Unknown time frame, since Solaris existed in the past, present, and future, they went off to face Solaris at the past, present, and future.
    /
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkHkbFWXGhQ#t=363
    /
    “No, it(Solaris) is a transcendent life form that exists in the past, present, and future”-Eggman
    /
    “If you say exists in the past, present, and future, I’ll destroy them all at once.”-Silver the Hedgehog
    /
    “Certainly, it might have been possible if he(Sonic) was still alive”-Shadow the Hedgehog
    /
    Later, they revive Sonic and then they all become super hedgehogs. And then they all start fighting Solaris at the past, present, and future.
    /
    “Chances are MMH can get the ring and back before Shadow twitches.”
    /
    Except that Shadow can slow time.
    With his ability to go as fast as lightning to lightspeed, Super Shadow would effectively be FTL.
    Laharl here is also FTL, and as shown in the previous link, can go out if our system and back in a few seconds.
    Furthermore, even if Manhunter gets the ring and brings it back, Shadow can go back in time before he gets it and negate team 1s win since it never happened.
    /
    “Or he can simply be mind-wiped into thinking he’s a dog.”
    /
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNLG4ARbOBI#t=1045
    After Shadow over comes his past and Maria angst, he immediately becomes immune to Black Shadow’s mind control.

  23. Ranger Lowk August 31, 2014 at 7:18 pm -      #123

    “It’s still part of his CiS, so it’s still in effect for the match.”

    I meant that they hurt but not really on a physical level.
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3259893-2013-05-29+07-25-48+-+justice+league+of+america+%282013-%29+004-025.jpg
    For example perfectly fine during reentry
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3260104-23.jpg
    ===
    “However, he can just avoid fires altogether considering how fast he is. He isn’t going to get hit by anything.”

    Not sure if it still counts since this was pre-dead mars, Phasing so he doesn’t have to go through reentry heat(sort of the opposite of the above)
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3259819-27.jpg
    ===
    Put Despero into a coma/messes with his synapse
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/120679/3260129-justice+league+%282011-%29+020-012.jpg
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/120679/3260130-justice+league+%282011-%29+020-014.jpg

  24. Alpha or Omega August 31, 2014 at 7:19 pm -      #124

    Just to let everyone know, I posted that before Aelfinn.
    Which also happened in that Elfin Lied thread with Tarbel.
    Am…Am…I being ignored when I post a link…?
    *Runs off and cries in a corner*

  25. Jake_Uzumaki August 31, 2014 at 7:19 pm -      #125

    And is Black Shadow in any way comparable to Manhunter Aizen or Kaguya

    Also…no Shadow can’t go back in time if the match has already been won…that’s kind of after he already lost. Maybe before it’s taken to the mountain but if it’s already at the mountain he’s already lost.

  26. Alpha or Omega August 31, 2014 at 7:20 pm -      #126

    Also, with the chaos emeralds, Shadow should be able to make two other people super as well.
    How would Team 1 would like it if Yasha and Laharl became Super and transcended time.

  27. Jake_Uzumaki August 31, 2014 at 7:22 pm -      #127

    Also from what I’m reading there was some sort of time rift involved when they were fighting Solaris…in fact the section those quotes are in in the script is titled “Space Time Rift” that seems like something that would allow time travel to be possible where it is not normally.

  28. Commander Cross August 31, 2014 at 7:24 pm -      #128

    @Alpha or Omega at #124

    I’m still paying attention. :(

    Also, does Rand have the Choedan Kal or an Overcharged Callandor on him?
    It makes a hell of a difference here.

  29. Alpha or Omega August 31, 2014 at 7:27 pm -      #129

    “And is Black Shadow in any way comparable to Manhunter Aizen or Kaguya”
    /
    Your right, but our rules insist that similar elements can be incorporated in this match.
    Since Shadow is immune to mind rape, he will be immune here. Otherwise, since they are not comparable in any way, we might as well say the mind rape won’t work since Shadow is so different.
    /
    “Also…no Shadow can’t go back in time if the match has already been won…that’s kind of after he already lost. Maybe before it’s taken to the mountain but if it’s already at the mountain he’s already lost”
    /
    Ah, but the rules said you can’t go in time before a match.
    Also, the match never won if the ring was taken as the same time as the match began negating Manhunter’s possession of the ring. Furthermore, since Shadow had to be in the past, present, or future, he can exist within the match start.
    It’s not a time stop if you only move during the zero second of the match.

  30. Alpha or Omega August 31, 2014 at 7:32 pm -      #130

    “Also from what I’m reading there was some sort of time rift involved when they were fighting Solaris…in fact the section those quotes are in in the script is titled “Space Time Rift” that seems like something that would allow time travel to be possible where it is not normally.”
    /
    It still doesn’t change the fact that Solaris still existed in the past, present, and future.
    Shadow and Silver would only be capable of taking two out of those three.
    They needed Sonic to cover the three past, present, and future.
    /
    Furthermore, you can time travel with only two emeralds if necessary.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWxa8qdZrNk#t=169
    There’s more if you need it.
    /
    Also, the wiki only goes over their abilities without the chaos emeralds.

  31. Jake_Uzumaki August 31, 2014 at 7:35 pm -      #131

    Has Shadow shown the ability to share the super state? Sonic is the one who did it in the game your referencing but has Shadow ever shown that ability?

  32. Aelfinn August 31, 2014 at 7:36 pm -      #132

    I’m not ignoring you, AoO, I just wanted to bring it to everyone’s attention again.

  33. Alpha or Omega August 31, 2014 at 7:40 pm -      #133

    “Has Shadow shown the ability to share the super state?”
    /

    /
    “Sonic is the one who did it in the game your referencing but has Shadow ever shown that ability?”
    /
    Sort of.
    If not, they can all be surrounded by chaos emeralds and then become Super.

  34. Jake_Uzumaki August 31, 2014 at 7:41 pm -      #134

    No he would be immune to Black Shadows, if either of the three in this match are more powerful then there’s no reason to think he’s immune to them, at that point it becomes a No Limit’s Fallacy.
    If Black Shadow doesn’t have a feat greater than mind raping an entire planet then Shadow won’t be immune to the Infinite Tuskinomi which mind raped an entire planet into submission.

    To use another example just because someone resists Professor Xavier the strongest Earth telepath doesn’t mean they’ll automatically be immune to Thanos who has mind raped beings that have proven incapable of being affected by Xavier.

    You said if he’s too late and the ring is already back at the mountain.
    The OP states “The first to secure the One Ring and return to the Mountains of Shadow wins for their team.”
    Therefore once the ring has been returned to or is back at the mountain Shadow can no longer due anything because the match stipulations for victory have been met. Shadow has lost at that point and the match is over.

  35. OberHerr August 31, 2014 at 7:42 pm -      #135

    @AoO
    Well, what is the extent of his immunity to mind-rape from the Sonic universe? Like, how good was person doing the mind attacks? Because we don’t just assume immunity, we see if we can gauge if he should be able to resist him or not.

  36. Ranger Lowk August 31, 2014 at 7:42 pm -      #136

    “She doesn’t have to be near him to teleport him away.”

    What her max range? Becasue Doomsday wiped out a city, jets that where flying over the island, and left a deadzone 300 miles big.
    ===
    “Ok, can he teleport to more than one dimension though?”
    “So, can she still dump him/it into another random dimension and leave him?”

    I’m saying is him using the phantom zone to get back is like using a one way street. It leads back to the battlefield thats it. Don’t think his method can GET to any other dimension. But it should be able to get him out.
    ===
    “Unknown time frame, since Solaris existed in the past, present, and future, they went off to face Solaris at the past, present, and future.”

    Better question how fast does it take him to get to the mode where he can use that ability?
    Also going by the video it didn’t look like he just time travel, he had to fly up through some kind of portal.
    ===
    “Except that Shadow can slow time.
    With his ability to go as fast as lightning to lightspeed, Super Shadow would effectively be FTL.”

    Doesn’t really have to move fast when he can think fast as well. His best power is mental based.
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/120679/3390658-2013-10-16+07-57-36+-+justice+league+of+america+%282013-%29+008-015.jpg

  37. Jake_Uzumaki August 31, 2014 at 7:45 pm -      #137

    Also wouldn’t using the emeralds for three super states at once burn up all three of his uses of the emeralds? because the OP says he’s only allowed to use the super shadow state three times, and he would be using the Chaos Emeralds three times in that situation if he surrounded them with it.

    and can you point me to a specific point in that 25 minute video?

  38. Alpha or Omega August 31, 2014 at 7:52 pm -      #138

    The link is somewhere around the 19:20 for post 133. Ugh, forgot editing does that.
    /
    @Jake and Ober
    Okay, so let me get this straight, we have to gauge mind rape, when there’s no numbers or anything to quantify mind rape? And the only way we can do so, is, correct me if I’m wrong, power scaling?
    /
    @Jake
    “You said if he’s too late and the ring is already back at the mountain.
    The OP states “The first to secure the One Ring and return to the Mountains of Shadow wins for their team.”
    Therefore once the ring has been returned to or is back at the mountain Shadow can no longer due anything because the match stipulations for victory have been met. Shadow has lost at that point and the match is over.”
    /
    Except Shadow has only lost at that point.
    That point is like seconds after the match.
    He can just go to the beginning of the match where he didn’t lose at that point.
    Also, technically, he’s the first since he was chronologically the first one there before the others.
    Besides, who’s the fastest on team 1?
    At what speed?
    Shadow in super form can go to lightning speeds to lightspeed and add the time slow(since time stop isn’t allowed) he’s effectively FTL.
    Nevermind that he’s capable of teleportation.
    /
    @Lowk
    “Doesn’t really have to move fast when he can think fast as well. His best power is mental based.”
    /
    Never doubted that.

  39. Ragnorke August 31, 2014 at 7:55 pm -      #139

    @Lowk
    “I’m saying is him using the phantom zone to get back is like using a one way street. It leads back to the battlefield thats it. Don’t think his method can GET to any other dimension. But it should be able to get him out.”

    I don’t really agree with this…
    Every dimension has its own physics and sets of rules. Breaking out of one may be possible, whereas breaking out of another might not be.
    Can you find a statement saying DD has the power to break out of any place, or can’t be contained in alternate dimensions? Otherwise we assume it’s limited to the Phantom Zone.

    @AoO
    “Unknown time frame,”

    That makes the feat useless…. why are you assuming he can use it in the match, if the time-frame is unknown?

    “Okay, so let me get this straight, we have to gauge mind rape, when there’s no numbers or anything to quantify mind rape? And the only way we can do so, is, correct me if I’m wrong, power scaling?”

    You’re assuming everyones mind rape is exactly the same. That isn’t the case.
    Different people are better at it or worse.
    What’s Dark Shadows greatest mind control feat? it will then be compared to team 1s greatest mind control feat.
    Shadow has a limit to his mind control resistance, saying otherwise is a NLF. So yes, we power scale.

  40. Alpha or Omega August 31, 2014 at 7:58 pm -      #140

    “Also wouldn’t using the emeralds for three super states at once burn up all three of his uses of the emeralds? because the OP says he’s only allowed to use the super shadow state three times, and he would be using the Chaos Emeralds three times in that situation if he surrounded them with it.”
    /
    I don’t see how that’s a problem, really.
    Shadow was capable of battling Black Shadow and was still super after he defeated him. Then, he had enough chaos energy to teleport the huge comet into a kill sat in orbit.
    And really, time, is literally, not an issue.

  41. Jake_Uzumaki August 31, 2014 at 8:05 pm -      #141

    To further extrapolate on my Xavier Thanos example.
    Xavier was completely and utterly incapable of doing anything to Galactus telepathically, Galactus has in the past and several times after that been stated as being highly resistant/immune to telepathy, these are feats in the universe of Marvel 616.
    Thanos a much more powerful character than Xavier was, some time after the above incidents, able to for a brief time mentally dominate Galactus proving to have far more powerful telepathy than Xavier, who did less than nothing.

    Kaguya mind raped an entire planet, that is the most powerful mind rape feat she has, has Black Shadow performed any feats on a larger scale, solar system scale mind rape, galaxy scale mind rape, universe scale mind rape…or hell at the least multi planet mind rape? If not then Kaguya has more powerful/greater scale mind rape then Black Shadow and thus is capable of mind raping Shadow who has no feats of surviving more powerful mind rape.

  42. Alpha or Omega August 31, 2014 at 8:06 pm -      #142

    “That makes the feat useless…. why are you assuming he can use it in the match, if the time-frame is unknown?”
    /
    Because he transcended time in order to fight Solaris, you can’t really gauge that.
    /
    “You’re assuming everyones mind rape is exactly the same. That isn’t the case.”
    /
    Only due to the elemental rule where we assume certain aspects are similar.
    /
    “Different people are better at it or worse.”
    /
    Maybe that’s the case for DC, Marvel, and some other franchises, but some just treat it as mind rape.
    /
    “What’s Dark Shadows greatest mind control feat? it will then be compared to team 1s greatest mind control feat.”
    /
    Mind Controlling Shadow :/
    /
    “Shadow has a limit to his mind control resistance, saying otherwise is a NLF. So yes, we power scale.”
    /
    Yet, at the same time, there’s also a limit to the other side’s mind control if there’s a quantity.
    At the least, he should be resistant, and then combined with Rand’s spells, he should be immune.

  43. Ranger Lowk August 31, 2014 at 8:07 pm -      #143

    “Every dimension has its own physics and sets of rules. Breaking out of one may be possible, whereas breaking out of another might not be.”

    True but unless the dimension he’s in is stated to that cuts him off from other hopping into another dimension, somehow has his ability taken from him, or there some other sort of interference he should still be able to hop into the phantom zone.
    ===
    “Otherwise we assume it’s limited to the Phantom Zone.”

    I’m not saying he can go to other dimensions. I’m saying he can use the phantom zone to get out of the one he’s bfr’d. Once he’s out he’s not going to be able to go back because he hasn’t shown the ability to go any ole dimension.

  44. Jake_Uzumaki August 31, 2014 at 8:11 pm -      #144

    If all Black Shadow has done is mind rape Shadow then sadly Shadow is not immune to mind rape, and unless those magic defenses are put up before any of team 1 activate their mind rape tactics then Shadow can and will be mind raped.
    By your logic not even a full blown Omnipotent would be able to mind rape Shadow because mind rape is mind rape which is utterly ludicrous.

  45. OberHerr August 31, 2014 at 8:11 pm -      #145

    Rand won’t be casting any spells, he’s gonna get killed at the very start. Same as GEoM, who arguably has some of the best mind-raping ability here, and anyone without FTL speed most likely. And resistant isn’t really good enough. How good is his mind-immunity feat? Because resistant to some is blow past defenses with ease to others.

  46. Ragnorke August 31, 2014 at 8:13 pm -      #146

    “Only due to the elemental rule where we assume certain aspects are similar.”

    No, elemental compatibly makes 2 elements act similarly.
    So if someone can resist magical attacks to a degree from one universe, he can resist magical attacks to a degree from a different universe too, AS LONG as those magical attacks are in a similar power tier.
    However, that does not mean that both magical attacks have the same power and effectiveness. If one is able to destroy a car, and the other is able to destroy a planet… Resisting one does not allow you to resist the other.

    “Maybe that’s the case for DC, Marvel, and some other franchises, but some just treat it as mind rape.”

    This is like saying, physical strength is just physical strength.
    Whether you can lift a car, or whether you can lift a planet, makes no difference.
    If someone can block the first hit, he can block the second too, due to elemental compatibility.
    That is a fallacy.

    “Mind Controlling Shadow :/”

    Does he have NO other showings? Whatsoever?
    Otherwise we assume his greatest feat is mind controlling a single person at a time (…and failing at it?)
    Which makes it greatly inferior to what some of the people in team 1 can do.
    Read the 2 above examples for why it would be a fallacy to assume Shadow can resist it.

  47. Ragnorke August 31, 2014 at 8:15 pm -      #147

    @Lowk
    “I’m not saying he can go to other dimensions. I’m saying he can use the phantom zone to get out of the one he’s bfr’d. ”

    Well, my previous argument sorta still applies here.
    Can you prove he can go to the phantom zone via any dimension?
    Since… as i said… they’re all different.
    You would need an open-ended claim or statement, to prove that he can.

  48. Jake_Uzumaki August 31, 2014 at 8:16 pm -      #148

    Also if Rand is killed would the defenses remain or fall? because all it would take is a single attack from anyone on team 1 to kill him, Kaguya could just stab him from behind from across the battlefield and cause him to disintegrate.

  49. Ranger Lowk August 31, 2014 at 8:17 pm -      #149

    “Because he transcended time in order to fight Solaris, you can’t really gauge that.”

    But he still need time to get to the mode where he is able to do something like that then had to fly into some portal.
    ===
    “Mind Controlling Shadow :/”
    “At the least, he should be resistant, and then combined with Rand’s spells, he should be immune.”

    Cyborg, Wonder Woman, and Superman are either resistant or immune to Braniacs mind fuckery which is powerful enough to put the entire planet under his control. Martian Manhunter has no problems getting into their heads.

  50. OberHerr August 31, 2014 at 8:18 pm -      #150

    I think you would first need to prove that the dimension he is in cannot be teleported out of. Because I think we just assume someone can teleport to a dimension if they have done so before.

  51. sadot06 August 31, 2014 at 8:20 pm -      #151

    @Commander Cross


    Explain those things. Which is standard for his recent incarnation?


    Also note, Kaguya’s planet wide genjutsu, while impressive, isn’t quite what it sounds like since the Naruto world isn’t heavily populated.

  52. Jake_Uzumaki August 31, 2014 at 8:22 pm -      #152

    @Sadot
    true it’s not as heavily populated as a modern world but for the purposes of the targets of it in this match for the most part it’s enough, the only ones I’m unsure of are Yasha because..well same reasons we were unsure if GEoM could mind rape Asura and Larhal because well..he seems to be on a very different level.
    Well and the defenders but I again, different kind of levels.

  53. Ragnorke August 31, 2014 at 8:27 pm -      #153

    @Jake
    “Also if Rand is killed would the defenses remain or fall?”

    They would fall, since the thread would be cut. 99% sure of it.

    “Because I think we just assume someone can teleport to a dimension if they have done so before.”

    However, as i said, all universes have different physics and mechanics of their own.
    If someone can teleport from the standard universe to a dimension, i don’t think it means he can teleport from a completely different one to said dimension as well.
    Since chances are there’s a certain link between the two, or because said dimensions are compatible, or etc etc..
    An open ended statement, something like: “DD can travel to the phantom zone, regardless of where he is” would settle it… otherwise the feat still has a limitation… in my opinion anyways.

  54. sadot06 August 31, 2014 at 8:28 pm -      #154

    I don’t think this was clarified, but the teams are starting in the mountains, but they aren’t in front of each other ready to face off. There will be time to prep since it’s not consistent with their characters to rush head first to the ring without a plan knowing that it’s heavily guarded and there is a whole other team they have limited knowledge of also after it.

  55. Ranger Lowk August 31, 2014 at 8:31 pm -      #155

    “Can you prove he can go to the phantom zone via any dimension?”

    Not without know what would be keeping him from doing so?
    The Phantom Zone is outside of the sphere of universes and doesn’t seem to directly connect to only one of them much like. So in any universe they are capable of accessing the Phantom Zone assuming they have the tech or ability to do so.

  56. Jake_Uzumaki August 31, 2014 at 8:36 pm -      #156

    this match just got a lot messier then…

    Fate might be able to amp people on his team, again not sure what current Fate can do.

    Kaguya and Manhunter have a couple ways to spy on team 2 (open a small portal near them that they can’t see/go intangible and just stay near them and telepathically relay info to the team)

    Fate and Manhunter are both capable of informing team 1 of Doomsday and Sinestro’s capabilities and Ghost Rider can inform them of Hulks giving team 1 far more capability to plan around the abilities of the defenders than team 2 has.

    Aizen could get in position to use his ultimate illusion on the defenders..and from there if he wants they might only see team 2…which would turn things quite against team 2.

  57. Alpha or Omega August 31, 2014 at 8:37 pm -      #157

    @Jake
    “If all Black Shadow has done is mind rape Shadow then sadly Shadow is not immune to mind rape, and unless those magic defenses are put up before any of team 1 activate their mind rape tactics then Shadow can and will be mind raped.”
    /
    First, can you give me Manhunter’s, Aizen, and Kazuya mind raping feats then?
    Two, how long does it take for Manhunter to mind rape a mind rape resistant person.
    Three, what’s the range of the mind rape?
    /
    “By your logic not even a full blown Omnipotent would be able to mind rape Shadow because mind rape is mind rape which is utterly ludicrous.”
    /
    Except an omnipotent is infinite, unlimited, etc. Can do anything.
    /
    @Ragnorke
    “This is like saying, physical strength is just physical strength.
    Whether you can lift a car, or whether you can lift a planet, makes no difference.
    If someone can block the first hit, he can block the second too, due to elemental compatibility.
    That is a fallacy.”
    /
    No, it’s like saying since you can hack this tech, you can hack the other tech regardless of the differences and how it works.
    /
    “Does he have NO other showings? Whatsoever?
    Otherwise we assume his greatest feat is mind controlling a single person at a time (…and failing at it?)”
    /
    How is mind controlling more than one person a greater feat?
    Shadow suddenly just became immune to Black Shadow’s mind rape, not really failing.
    /
    “Which makes it greatly inferior to what some of the people in team 1 can do.
    Read the 2 above examples for why it would be a fallacy to assume Shadow can resist it.”
    /
    Who has team 1 mind raped?

  58. Jake_Uzumaki August 31, 2014 at 8:38 pm -      #158

    @Lowk
    so every universe uses the same Phantom Zone? does that mean there’s an infinite number of Zods telling each other to kneel?

  59. Numinous One August 31, 2014 at 8:39 pm -      #159

    I’d forgotten about Rand’s wards, which raises another question since I’m not too versed on SoT, but can the Rahl bond be extended to others?
    If team 2 can avoid the mindrape, their chances for winning are massively increased.

    Though I’ve not seen anything saying Super Shadow can’t grab the ring pretty much instantly after transforming, because of the whole existing in 1/3 of every moment of time simultaneously.

  60. Jake_Uzumaki August 31, 2014 at 8:41 pm -      #160

    Kaguya mind raped everyone on the Naruto planet except for Naruto Sasuke Kakashi and Sakura, who were defended by Sasuke’s perfect Susanoo, and Obito who was being controlled by Black Zetsu.
    The Edo Kage’s were unaffected but their zombies.
    Basically if the light of the Jutsu hit their eyes they were mind raped and the entire planet was exposed to the light for several minutes trapping everyone in their perfect fantasy world.

  61. Ragnorke August 31, 2014 at 8:43 pm -      #161

    “No, it’s like saying since you can hack this tech, you can hack the other tech regardless of the differences and how it works.”

    Which is a fallacy, lol.
    Being able to hack advanced human tech, doesn’t give you the ability to hack advanced alien tech.
    The differences and how it works MAKES A MAJOR difference, assuming one is better protected than the other.

    “How is mind controlling more than one person a greater feat?”

    How is killing a million people a better feat than killing one person?
    How is lifting a million kilograms a better feat than lifting 1 kilogram?
    How are you not seeing the problem in your argument?

    “Shadow suddenly just became immune to mind rape.”

    No, he suddenly became resistant to mind control up to the extent that Dark Shadow has shown the ability to use it.
    Saying otherwise is a NLF.

    I’v given you almost 4 examples of NLFs that apply perfectly to this situation. I’m surprised you still think it’s a viable argument.
    Here’s another one for good measure:
    If someone has a shield that can block a city busting attack… Do you assume the same shield can block a galaxy busting attack? JUST because it has shown the ability to block a physical attack?

    “Who has team 1 mind raped?”

    MMH has used it plenty of times, i’ll need to find the scans.

  62. Jake_Uzumaki August 31, 2014 at 8:44 pm -      #162

    @Numinous One
    how long does it take him to transform?
    Because there’s nothing stopping Kaguya from just dropping the ring into one of her dimensions or straight into her own palm with a portal. Or Fate doing the same, since he has prep he could start the spell during that period and the second the match starts it be complete.

  63. Ranger Lowk August 31, 2014 at 8:45 pm -      #163

    Just thought about another point, the Phantom Zone itself is pretty much devoid of anything like regular physics and he’s able to get in and out of that. What kind of dimension are we talking that’s worse then the phantom zone itself?

  64. Alpha or Omega August 31, 2014 at 8:46 pm -      #164

    “Kaguya mind raped everyone on the Naruto planet except for Naruto Sasuke Kakashi and Sakura, who were defended by Sasuke’s perfect Susanoo, and Obito who was being controlled by Black Zetsu.”
    /
    So he mind raped a bunch of people that weren’t resistant or immune to mind rape?
    Shadow should be fine then.
    /
    “Basically if the light of the Jutsu hit their eyes they were mind raped and the entire planet was exposed to the light for several minutes trapping everyone in their perfect fantasy world.”
    /
    So Shadow would be fine by closing his eyes?
    Shadow should be fine and then Super Shadow would be fine since he transcended time unless Kaguya’s light mind rape can ignore time.

  65. Ragnorke August 31, 2014 at 8:51 pm -      #165

    ” the Phantom Zone itself is pretty much devoid of anything like regular physics and he’s able to get in and out of that.”

    I find this hard to believe, since Wonder Woman & Batman entered, and had a few fights and shit.

    “So he mind raped a bunch of people that weren’t resistant or immune to mind rape?
    Shadow should be fine then.”

    Nope, since Shadow has never shown to resist mind rape of that scale.

    If someone can resist a blast of light that just vaporizes one person, can he resist a blast of light that vaporizes a planet? NLF.

  66. Alpha or Omega August 31, 2014 at 8:54 pm -      #166

    “Being able to hack advanced human tech, doesn’t give you the ability to hack advanced alien tech.
    The differences and how it works MAKES A MAJOR difference, assuming one is better protected than the other.”
    /
    Then how about using alien tech 1 to hack the other alien tech 2 that can defend against hacking by others, when tech 1 can hack any tech but those tech weren’t able to defend against hacking?
    /
    “How is killing a million people a better feat than killing one person?
    How is lifting a million kilograms a better feat than lifting 1 kilogram?
    How are you not seeing the problem in your argument?”
    /
    No, I see a problem in your argument.
    What’s better, mind raping a person 1 million light years away or mind raping 2 people?
    /
    What I see is that your trying to quantify mind rape when there’s units or anything measurable than power scaling which it, itself has no units.
    /
    “No, he suddenly became resistant to mind control up to the extent that Dark Shadow has shown the ability to use it.
    Saying otherwise is a NLF.”
    /
    Dark Shadow, who was mind raping him, said he became immune to his.
    It’s not an NLF, it’s an argument over quantity of mind rape.
    /
    “I’v given you almost 4 examples of NLFs that apply perfectly to this situation. I’m surprised you still think it’s a viable argument.”
    /
    You gave 4 examples that don’t relate to mind rape where there’s no quantifiable numbers
    /
    “Here’s another one for good measure:
    If someone has a shield that can block a city busting attack… Do you assume the same shield can block a galaxy busting attack? JUST because it has shown the ability to block a physical attack?”
    /
    At least we have numbers or a range of numbers for those. Mind rape, not so much.
    Mind rape

  67. Jake_Uzumaki August 31, 2014 at 8:54 pm -      #167

    Manhunter feats
    While in Hyperspace makes a large number of people leave a large area of Colorado to avoid casualties
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3254021-stormwatch3-4.jpg

    erases a crowds memories
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3254083-stormwatch9-1.jpg

    the info dump and mind wipe of Green Lanterns that Lowk mentioned
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3254165-glc-05-08.jpg
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3254166-glc-05-09.jpg
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3254170-glc-05-10.jpg

  68. Ranger Lowk August 31, 2014 at 8:56 pm -      #168

    “does that mean there’s an infinite number of Zods telling each other to kneel?”

    Kneel before Zod
    NO YOU KNEEL BEFORE ZOD
    BOTH OF YOU KNEEL! BEFORE! ZOD!
    Faora: I’m so glad our Zod’s neck was snapped.

  69. Alpha or Omega August 31, 2014 at 8:57 pm -      #169

    “Nope, since Shadow has never shown to resist mind rape of that scale.”
    /
    Except that scale isn’t impressive since Kaguya only mind raped people not resistant or immune to mind rape.
    He failed to mind rape a few people under one susanoo and another under a black Zetsu.
    He failed to mind rape one person thanks to an immunity or a resistance, therefore Shadow should be immune.
    See, I can play your game too.

  70. Alpha or Omega August 31, 2014 at 9:03 pm -      #170

    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3254083-stormwatch9-1.jpg
    /
    Ah, so there’s a limited range and did so on people who aren’t resistant to mind rape.
    Shadow should be fine, and if he’s some how not immune, he will be in super form since it can’t transcend time.
    /
    *Green Lantern mind rape Links snips*
    /
    So are any of the Green Lanterns immune to mind rape?

  71. Jake_Uzumaki August 31, 2014 at 9:04 pm -      #171

    She, Black Zetsu is her Will manifest so Obito was under her control already.

    And the Mind Rape works by being seen, Sasuke essentially put a lead umbrella over everyone. Had it not been for the Susanoo all of them would have been mindraped and Sasuke said this much, although he suspected he might be able to avoid mind rape due to him having the same Rinnegan but this was never tested.

  72. Commander Cross August 31, 2014 at 9:04 pm -      #172

    @Everyone else

    Anyone willing to address the question at #151, before I answer which one of the two if any’s more recently available?

  73. Ranger Lowk August 31, 2014 at 9:05 pm -      #173

    “I find this hard to believe, since Wonder Woman & Batman entered, and had a few fights and shit.”

    They actually noted something was wrong since the first time supes went in you aren’t supposed to feel anything and iirc see. At least not without some kind of aid.

    EDIT: In fact it’s mentioned that Doomsday breaking out of the phantom zone was the cause for it being unstable. Doomsday ripped open a hole in a dimension previously thought to be inescapable. Then used it as his own personal shortcuts.

  74. Ragnorke August 31, 2014 at 9:07 pm -      #174

    ” when tech 1 can hack any tech but those tech weren’t able to defend against hacking?”

    Hacking “any” tech is a NLF. Using the word “any” is a NLF, in this situation.
    No tech can hack any tech, unless stated by an omnipotent source or the word of god.

    “What’s better, mind raping a person 1 million light years away or mind raping 2 people?”

    They are both better for different scenarios.
    If you were you mention the scenario, i would be able to answer.
    Everyone has a range, of how far they can mind rape. If your target isn’t in your range, then your mind rape is completely useless.

    “What I see is that your trying to quantify mind rape when there’s units or anything measurable than power scaling which it, itself has no units.”

    Explosive light and hardlight constructs don’t have units either. We simply see feats, and we powerscale feats.
    The same applies here. Power scaling.
    Instead, you recommend we throw all the feats out the window, and assume that Shadow has a NLF.

    “Dark Shadow, who was mind raping him, said he became immune to his.”

    Exactly. He became immune to Dark Shadows mind rape. That doesn’t make him immune to more powerful mindrape.
    For all we know, the extent of Dark Shadows mindrape, was to make Shadow say a single word.
    Whereas a different characters mindrape, is capable of completely controlling you for days.

    Are you not seeing a difference? If you think they’re the same, that’s simply a fallacy, and we have no need to continue this argument.
    Dark Shadows mindrape is featless, therefor by default we assume its weaker than others, since it has no proof of its limits or power.

    “You gave 4 examples that don’t relate to mind rape where there’s no quantifiable numbers”

    Once again, you’re assuming all mind rape is the same when they are not.
    Elemental compatibility does not make them the same.

    “At least we have numbers or a range of numbers for those. Mind rape, not so much.
    Mind rape”

    Moving FTL is unquantifiable, since in our science it’s an impossible scenario.
    So is every character that moves FTL equivalent to the other?
    Even though character A moved from 1 galaxy to the other in a second, whereas character B moved from 1 solar system to the other in a second.
    Both are equally unquantifiable, but that doesn’t make them equal. One is shown to be superior to the other.
    In the same sense, 1 form of mind rape can be superior to the other, depending on the scenario.
    Dark Shadows mind rape is completely featless, meaning for all we know all it’s capable of doing is making someone bark 3 times before the effect runs out.

  75. Jake_Uzumaki August 31, 2014 at 9:09 pm -      #175

    Green Lantern Rings generally provide some degree of telepathic resistance if I remember correctly.

    Mind wipes a robot/cyborg, so he could turn Yasha into a vegetable probably
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3254351-18.jpg

  76. Alpha or Omega August 31, 2014 at 9:10 pm -      #176

    “She, Black Zetsu is her Will manifest so Obito was under her control already.”
    /
    If Obito was under her control already, what’s the point of saying he’s immune to the mind rape when he’s being mind rape by someone else?
    /
    “And the Mind Rape works by being seen, Sasuke essentially put a lead umbrella over everyone. Had it not been for the Susanoo all of them would have been mindraped and Sasuke said this much, although he suspected he might be able to avoid mind rape due to him having the same Rinnegan but this was never tested.”
    /
    That doesn’t change my argument at all.
    Did the mind rape work on anyone who has been previously immune or resistant to mind rape?
    For all we know, it’s just capable of mind raping more non-mind defending people than people capable of defending against mind rape.

  77. Ragnorke August 31, 2014 at 9:12 pm -      #177

    Before you try saying “But moving FTL is quantifiable, because all you need to do is measure the distance and divide it by time, to find speed”
    No. All forms of measurement, including distance and time, get heavily altered as you move at relevistic speeds, and all forms of measurements become none-existent and invalid once you reach C.
    So it isn’t quantifiable by any stretch of the imagination.

  78. Alpha or Omega August 31, 2014 at 9:12 pm -      #178

    “Green Lantern Rings generally provide some degree of telepathic resistance if I remember correctly.”
    /
    Explain.
    Even in N52?
    Resistance to what kind of mind rape?
    Resistance as in
    “I’ll fight it back for a few seconds” or “Mind rape will still effect me, but I can keep holding it at bay?”
    Details

  79. Jake_Uzumaki August 31, 2014 at 9:15 pm -      #179

    Mind Raping Despero a powerful telepath who had mind raped Superman, who has shown resistance to telepathy as Lowk said, he also reverses the flow of Despero’s synapses.
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3260128-justice+league+%282011-%29+020-011.jpg
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3260129-justice+league+%282011-%29+020-012.jpg
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3260130-justice+league+%282011-%29+020-014.jpg

  80. Ragnorke August 31, 2014 at 9:18 pm -      #180

    “For all we know, it’s just capable of mind raping more non-mind defending people than people capable of defending against mind rape.”

    The burden of proof lies in the defense in this case.

    It’s the equivalent of saying: This attack can bust cities.
    Your response: But can you prove that it can also destroy this shield? which has only been shown to tank car busting attacks?

    Burden of proof lies with you, to prove the defenses can tank the attack.

    “Resistance as in
    “I’ll fight it back for a few seconds” or “Mind rape will still effect me, but I can keep holding it at bay?”
    Details”

    I love how you’re asking for details here, yet you’re unable to provide any regarding Dark Shadows mind control.
    Just another issue with your argument.

  81. OberHerr August 31, 2014 at 9:21 pm -      #181

    Except Shadow’s resistance is limited to one guy, who as far as we know was only able to mind rape one person barely. You want numbers? Try MMH’s ability to mind-rape groups of very mind-rape resistant people. Who have feats that are far and away better than shadows.

  82. Commander Cross August 31, 2014 at 9:21 pm -      #182

    Nobody’s bothering to answer the question at #151, eh?

    Either the Choedan Kal or the Overcharged Callandor would be enough to give Rand Planet-level+* Control over the Front-lines and it would be more than enough to allow Rand to counter the actions of Kaguya, 616 Ghost Rider or Spawn, plus make dealing with WWH, Doomsday or Sinestro more workable to accomplish for Rand.

    1.) (Or above, depending on what else the Wheel of Time Buffs out there may add.)

  83. Ragnorke August 31, 2014 at 9:25 pm -      #183

    @Cross
    “Either the Choedan Kal or the Overcharged Callandor would be enough to give Rand Planet-level+* ”

    But why would he have them? They aren’t default equipment for rand.

  84. Jake_Uzumaki August 31, 2014 at 9:26 pm -      #184

    There are multiple ninja techniques to break out of mind rape, no one was able to break out of it, and the zombie Kage’s were unable to break anyone free of it.
    It also doesn’t change the fact that the Infinite Tsukinomi doesn’t work the same way as Black Doom’s (good work telling us the right character by the way)
    Also how do we know that Shadow isn’t immune to Black Doom’s mind rape because he’s made from Black Doom’s genetic material, he failed to mind control Shadow but had shown a telepathic link to him did this ability to telepathically communicate with Shadow vanish as well? Or was he still able to communicate with Shadow after that point.

  85. Alpha or Omega August 31, 2014 at 9:26 pm -      #185

    “Hacking “any” tech is a NLF. Using the word “any” is a NLF, in this situation.
    No tech can hack any tech, unless stated by an omnipotent source or the word of god.”
    /
    And isn’t it the same for mind control in this case?
    /
    “They are both better for different scenarios.
    If you were you mention the scenario, i would be able to answer.
    Everyone has a range, of how far they can mind rape. If your target isn’t in your range, then your mind rape is completely useless.”
    /
    How did you figure this out and may I see how you determined this?
    If a person 1 is immune to the mind range and person 2 is immune to the 2 people mind rape.
    Who’s more resistant?
    /
    “Explosive light and hardlight constructs don’t have units either. We simply see feats, and we powerscale feats.”
    /
    Except they are being hit by something that has a limited known velocity, a limited known amount of energy.
    /
    “The same applies here. Power scaling.
    Instead, you recommend we throw all the feats out the window, and assume that Shadow has a NLF.”
    /
    Or I could claim that your giving a NLF since no one on Team 1 has mind raped a mind resistant person. I could use power scaling to my way too.
    Your assuming that mind raping lots of people=Capable of Mind raping 1 resistant person.
    I would like to see how you’re an expert on how mind rape works plz.
    /
    “Exactly. He became immune to Dark Shadows mind rape. That doesn’t make him immune to more powerful mindrape.
    For all we know, the extent of Dark Shadows mindrape, was to make Shadow say a single word.
    Whereas a different characters mindrape, is capable of completely controlling you for days.”
    /
    Except your trying to compare Dark Shadows mind rape to your characters and how do you know that saying a single word makes a mind rape weaker?
    That’s a limitation of quality, not quantity.
    /
    “Are you not seeing a difference? If you think they’re the same, that’s simply a fallacy, and we have no need to continue this argument.
    Dark Shadows mindrape is featless, therefor by default we assume its weaker than others, since it has no proof of its limits or power.”
    /
    I’m not saying their the same, I’m saying how does thing mind rape interact with others.
    I would like to point out that mind rape in general, has no proof of its limits or powers.
    We never ever quantified it yet.
    /
    “Once again, you’re assuming all mind rape is the same when they are not.
    Elemental compatibility does not make them the same.”
    /
    Once again, I’m saying their not the same since I’m playing by your game while questioning how did YOU quantify, compare, and know how mind rape works.
    /
    “Moving FTL is unquantifiable, since in our science it’s an impossible scenario.”
    /
    Yet, the comics out right state their speed if necessary.
    Also, speed is at least a vector, while mind rape isn’t.
    /
    “So is every character that moves FTL equivalent to the other?
    Even though character A moved from 1 galaxy to the other in a second, whereas character B moved from 1 solar system to the other in a second.
    Both are equally unquantifiable, but that doesn’t make them equal. One is shown to be superior to the other.”
    /
    Speed isn’t exactly the same as mind rape.
    /
    “In the same sense, 1 form of mind rape can be superior to the other, depending on the scenario.
    Dark Shadows mind rape is completely featless, meaning for all we know all it’s capable of doing is making someone bark 3 times before the effect runs out.”
    /
    Who’s making fallacies now?

  86. Ranger Lowk August 31, 2014 at 9:28 pm -      #186

    Manhunter doesn’t need to mind control, he can erase memories, put you into a coma, or put you in an illusion.
    Nevermind the fact that he can get into the heads of Wonder Woman and Superman two people who are immune to Braniacs brain jacking.
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/12/120679/4028188-superman-wonder+woman+%282013-%29+011-016.jpg

    Getting into their mind
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3259675-justiceleague_8_thegroup_021.jpg
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3259678-justiceleague_8_thegroup_023.jpg
    ===
    Arugs has telepathic inhibitors, Manhunter give no fucks
    static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3259718-justiceleagueamerica_1_thegroup-026.jpg

  87. OberHerr August 31, 2014 at 9:31 pm -      #187

    I suggest we just stop with this pointless argument. Dark Shadows MR is almost featless, as in Shadows resistance to mind-raping, while people like MMH have tons of very high end feats and the speed to carry out the MR. Shadow is mind-raped from the start, and taken out of the fight, just like anyone else on Team 2 who lacks MRing feats to match up to MMH’s ability. With the exception of the ones he can just kill from the start.

  88. Jake_Uzumaki August 31, 2014 at 9:36 pm -      #188

    So just looked up how the mind rape happened with Shadow, Black Doom was only able to control Shadow because they shared the same blood.

  89. OberHerr August 31, 2014 at 9:37 pm -      #189

    So what I get from that is the feat is even weaker than we thought.

    Also, little off topic, why did MMH fight the JL? And holy shoot has he gotten an upgrade if he managed to at least hold his own against them all.

  90. Ragnorke August 31, 2014 at 9:39 pm -      #190

    “And isn’t it the same for mind control in this case?”

    It is. Although the defenses need to be proven.

    “Who’s more resistant?”

    Neither is more resistant. They are resistant to different scenarios.
    So once again, it would depend on the scenario.

    “Except they are being hit by something that has a limited known velocity, a limited known amount of energy.”

    FTL hits have no known velocity, nor are they quantifiable.
    Holding open dimensions with your hands isn’t quantifiable either.
    Neither is physically closing black holes.
    You use powerscaling, something you don’t seem to be able to comprehend.

    “Or I could claim that your giving a NLF since no one on Team 1 has mind raped a mind resistant person. I could use power scaling to my way too.”

    EXCEPT THEY HAVE. Or MMH has anyways.
    Will you now admit your argument was invalid?

    “Except your trying to compare Dark Shadows mind rape to your characters and how do you know that saying a single word makes a mind rape weaker?”

    Because it gives you less control over a targets mind, for a shorter period of time.
    That, is quantifiable.

    “I’m saying how does thing mind rape interact with others.
    I would like to point out that mind rape in general, has no proof of its limits or powers.”

    Yet your assuming that being resistant to one, automatically makes him resistant to all other forms of it.
    Which makes no sense.

    “Once again, I’m saying their not the same since I’m playing by your game while questioning how did YOU quantify, compare, and know how mind rape works.”

    Based on feats and powerscaling.
    Which Dark Shadow lacks.

    “Who’s making fallacies now?”

    I made no fallacies in that statement whatsoever. I’d love for you to point out exactly what was a fallacy.
    Here’s what you quoted from me: ““In the same sense, 1 form of mind rape can be superior to the other, depending on the scenario.
    Dark Shadows mind rape is completely featless, meaning for all we know all it’s capable of doing is making someone bark 3 times before the effect runs out.””

    There’s no fallacy there. Only that Dark Shadows mind control is completely featless, making it for the most part useless.

    Lets put it this way:
    Character A is completely featless, and attacks character B with an attack, but we have NO IDEA how strong that attack is, at all. But Character B manages to block it.
    Can Character B now block any other attack in existence?
    No, we simply assume character A was weak as shit.

    In the same sense, resisting 1 persons mind rape does not allow you to resist all forms of it.
    Specially when a person has already managed to mind rape people who have previously been shown to be resistant to it.
    It may not be quantifiable, but it’s easy to powerscale it into perspective.

  91. Alpha or Omega August 31, 2014 at 9:44 pm -      #191

    “The burden of proof lies in the defense in this case.”
    /
    Funny, did I hit a weak spot?
    I wasn’t trying to prove my point and only giving an alternate case to your case that lacked proof.
    Where’s your proof to your case that mind raping several people can mind rape a person who’s resistant?
    /
    “It’s the equivalent of saying: This attack can bust cities.
    Your response: But can you prove that it can also destroy this shield? which has only been shown to tank car busting attacks?”
    /
    Not really, it’s the equivalent of saying
    “This attack can bust one city”
    “But can you prove that it busts this shield, which blocked an attack that destroyed 17 large villages?”
    Furthermore, these attacks have a quantity, while how mind rape works is being debated.
    /
    “Burden of proof lies with you, to prove the defenses can tank the attack.”
    /
    Which I did show with Shadow immune to mind rape.
    Which none of team 1 mind raping people shown to over come mind rape resistant people. Only mind raping more people than aren’t resistant to mind rape.
    And we’re trying to power scale this which in turn, makes this a big mess.
    See my point?
    /
    “I love how you’re asking for details here, yet you’re unable to provide any regarding Dark Shadows mind control.
    Just another issue with your argument.”
    /
    Ah, kinda like Team 1s mind rape working on a mind rape resistant person from an alien
    You’re basically telling me to quantify mind rape when none of yours have details nor quantifiable numbers.
    /
    @Ober
    “Except Shadow’s resistance is limited to one guy, who as far as we know was only able to mind rape one person barely.”
    /
    Except he had complete control.
    And then Shadow became immune.
    Not barely. Complete.
    Nice try to warp text.
    /
    “You want numbers? Try MMH’s ability to mind-rape groups of very mind-rape resistant people. Who have feats that are far and away better than shadows.”
    /
    So these people were resistant to whose mind rape?
    Also, where’s these feats of mind resistance?
    /
    @Jake
    “Also how do we know that Shadow isn’t immune to Black Doom’s mind rape because he’s made from Black Doom’s genetic material, he failed to mind control Shadow but had shown a telepathic link to him did this ability to telepathically communicate with Shadow vanish as well? Or was he still able to communicate with Shadow after that point.”
    /
    Or that could make him under his complete control, making the feat even greater.
    Or, if we go with what you said, that would make Shadow partly telepathic due to Black Shadow’s DNA
    Face it, mind rape is plain out quantifiable and saying one is better than another opens a can of worms.

  92. Ragnorke August 31, 2014 at 9:52 pm -      #192

    “Where’s your proof to your case that mind raping several people can mind rape a person who’s resistant?”

    MMH has ALREADY mind raped someone who is resistant.
    Next argument please.

    “Which I did show with Shadow immune to mind rape.”

    No, he isn’t IMMUNE to it, unless stated by a omnipotent source of word of god.
    It’s the same problem with saying someone can tank “any” hit.
    He is RESISTANT to it, to a certain degree. But not immune.
    MMH has already mind raped people previously shown to be resistant to it. Therefor, by power scaling, and due to the lack of Dark Shadows usable mind control feat, we assume MMH can mind rape Shadow.
    Next.

    “You’re basically telling me to quantify mind rape when none of yours have details nor quantifiable numbers.”

    No one’s asking you to quantify shit.
    We’re telling you that MMH has ALREADY mind raped people with resistances to it.
    Yet you’re assuming Shadows resistance is somehow greater than theirs. Even though the mind rape that he defended against is completely featless, and impossible to power scale to anything.
    That my friend, is a Fallacy.

    “So these people were resistant to whose mind rape?
    Also, where’s these feats of mind resistance?”

    Superman’s a prime example. Pretty sure others have been providing scans.

    “Face it, mind rape is plain out quantifiable and saying one is better than another opens a can of worms.”

    Quantifiable or not, one CAN factually be better than the other, by powerscaling.
    If Xavier is unable to mind rape Galactus, but Thanos is able to do it. Is Thanos’ mind rape not more powerful?
    It is more powerful. Fact. Not an opinion. Quantifiable or not has no relevance.
    Unfortunately for you, Dark Shadows mind rape is featless, and thus cannot be powerscaled, and cannot be quantified either. Meaning the defense against it cannot be powerscaled. Making it flat out useless as far as the match is concerned.

  93. OberHerr August 31, 2014 at 9:57 pm -      #193

    “Except he had complete control.
    And then Shadow became immune.
    Not barely. Complete.
    Nice try to warp text.”

    Oh, COMPLETE CONTROL? Well that changes everything. Its not like that EVER has happened to in comics. Certainly not to a whole planet. And that same person certainly could not mind-rape WW and Superman. And WW and Superman certainly could not be MRed by MMH.

    “So these people were resistant to whose mind rape?
    Also, where’s these feats of mind resistance?”

    Braniac. Who mind-raped an entire planet. Which, is infinitely better than the Dark Shadow, who only managed to mind rape one person, who he shared blood with, and then was beaten.

    Like, seriously, that’s all Shadow gets credit for. Resisting a person who could control one person. Not a person with the ability to control two people, or beat out someone who has implants even.

    Basically, I’m done with this. If you don’t wanna accept that Shadows mind resistance is pittance compared to the most basic mind-control in comics, fine. But it is, and no, he’s not immune to MMH, and yes, MMH does mind-rape him at the start of this fight and takes him out of it. The end.

  94. Commander Cross August 31, 2014 at 10:01 pm -      #194

    Can we just focus on whether or not Rand gets the Choedan Kal or the Overcharged Callandor for this fight, please!?

  95. Ragnorke August 31, 2014 at 10:01 pm -      #195

    @OberHerr
    The problem is that AoO is refusing to accept power-scaling. And insists that any 2 things that are unquantifiable can be resisted equally, due to them being unquantifiable.
    But that’s exactly WHY we have powerscaling, which he seems to be throwing out the window.
    It’s just going in circles now, i’m going to continue responding, and point out his fallacies, as long as he insists on replying. But i think the debate should move on.

  96. OberHerr August 31, 2014 at 10:04 pm -      #196

    @Rag
    Well then there is a simple solution. Powerscaling has to exist. Otherwise, Dark Shadow could MR anyone. If he can’t, then he has weaker MR than someone who could MR, say, two people. Just like Brainiac is weaker than MMH due to him not being able to affect WW’s and Superman’s minds.

    Just like your Marvel example. Though this one is more applicable….and has been for the past thirty posts….

  97. Ragnorke August 31, 2014 at 10:06 pm -      #197

    @Ober
    I agree powerscaling has to exist, and powerscaling DOES exist. Which is why the debate should move on, assuming that it exists, and assuming that MMH can mind fuck Shadow to oblivion.
    It’s just Ad Nauseum now.

    Specially considering the power of Dark Shadow is completely featless. For all we know, he wouldn’t have been able to control a single normal human… making this entire argument a waste of time.

  98. Jake_Uzumaki August 31, 2014 at 10:10 pm -      #198

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNLG4ARbOBI#t=809
    around 14:29 Black Doom: You are a part of me…do you feel that? I can control you…

  99. Friendlysociopath August 31, 2014 at 10:10 pm -      #199

    For the record OP, I would’ve put Anime and Comic characters on separate teams, they routinely beat out their video game and novel counterparts through better stats, so putting both of the stronger sides together against the weaker sides pretty much spells doom.

    That said, in regards to mind-rape, we need to decide whether Rand’s wards would protect against said mind-rape.
    Laharl and (maybe) Shadow can’t solo the enemy team since they’re the only ones with the speed to keep up with the higher-tiered enemies, if everyone else on Team 2 falls to mind-fuckery then Team 2 loses.

    Also, just throwing this out there- since I’m pretty sure Team 2 loses if Rand’s wards don’t hold out- are the armies of Middle Earth present at this battle? Because Laharl literally grows stronger off of human fear energy, which is probably rampant if humans are present at the final battle and aliens start fighting in the sky.

    Edit: F’d up the italics didn’t I?
    Double Edit: HA, figured it out!

  100. Alpha or Omega August 31, 2014 at 10:13 pm -      #200

    @Ober
    “I suggest we just stop with this pointless argument. Dark Shadows MR is almost featless, as in Shadows resistance to mind-raping, while people like MMH have tons of very high end feats and the speed to carry out the MR. Shadow is mind-raped from the start, and taken out of the fight, just like anyone else on Team 2 who lacks MRing feats to match up to MMH’s ability. With the exception of the ones he can just kill from the start.”
    /
    Really?
    Some of my questions weren’t even answered?
    Such as how long does Manhunters mind rape take and on who?
    /
    @Jake and Oberherr
    “So just looked up how the mind rape happened with Shadow, Black Doom was only able to control Shadow because they shared the same blood.

    So what I get from that is the feat is even weaker than we thought.”
    /
    How does mind control through blood make it weaker? That’s a limitation of quality, not quantity?
    I could just as well say that Shadow’s is better since he easily broke out of mind control with little effort even though Black Shadow had complete control over anyone with his blood.
    /
    “It is. Although the defenses need to be proven.”
    /
    And it has, the mind rape immunity has been shown. Yet we are comparing apples and oranges.
    /
    “Neither is more resistant. They are resistant to different scenarios.
    So once again, it would depend on the scenario.”
    /
    Ah, now your starting to see my point of different qualities of mind rape.
    That’s no known way of how mind rape works.
    Does mind raping multiple people mean that it would work on a person who’s resistant to mind rape.
    /
    “FTL hits have no known velocity, nor are they quantifiable.
    Holding open dimensions with your hands isn’t quantifiable either.
    Neither is physically closing black holes.
    You use powerscaling, something you don’t seem to be able to comprehend.”
    /
    Yes, FTL are quantifiable. They have infinite energy. Only in fiction they aren’t infinite.
    Holding open dimension or closing black holes are unquantifiable, period.
    However, Powerscaling on a known unit is at least fine since we’re powerscaling based on a number and then we just add, subtract, multiply or divide.
    Powerscaling mind rape is just plain laughable.
    /
    “EXCEPT THEY HAVE. Or MMH has anyways.
    Will you now admit your argument was invalid?”
    /
    No they haven’t.
    Not even MMH. Who’s shown to mind rape lanterns, WW, and Supes who I am waiting for proof of their resistance.
    /
    “Because it gives you less control over a targets mind, for a shorter period of time.
    That, is quantifiable.”
    /
    That’s limitation on qualities, not quantities.
    How does a short time limit or a single word makes it have less control.
    /
    “Yet your assuming that being resistant to one, automatically makes him resistant to all other forms of it.
    Which makes no sense.”
    /
    Only due to elemental compatibility.
    However, now, I’m pretty much questioning how you determine how mind rape works.
    /
    “Based on feats and powerscaling.
    Which Dark Shadow lacks.”
    /
    Hmm?
    How does Dark Shadow lack feats?
    We see him taking complete control of Shadow.
    Only for Shadow to easily break through.
    /
    “I made no fallacies in that statement whatsoever. I’d love for you to point out exactly what was a fallacy.
    Here’s what you quoted from me: ““In the same sense, 1 form of mind rape can be superior to the other, depending on the scenario.
    Dark Shadows mind rape is completely featless, meaning for all we know all it’s capable of doing is making someone bark 3 times before the effect runs out.””
    /
    The fallacy was that since character 1 can mind rape more than one person, character 1’s mind rape can affect character 2’s that is immune against mind rape that works against one person.
    /
    “There’s no fallacy there. Only that Dark Shadows mind control is completely featless, making it for the most part useless.”
    /
    Yet, we are assuming that one mind rape is superior to the others despite the differences.
    /
    “Lets put it this way:
    Character A is completely featless, and attacks character B with an attack, but we have NO IDEA how strong that attack is, at all. But Character B manages to block it.
    Can Character B now block any other attack in existence?
    No, we simply assume character A was weak as shit.”
    /
    When did we come up with that rule?
    I never seen that rule before.
    Also, how does that apply to mind rape in any way?
    /
    “In the same sense, resisting 1 persons mind rape does not allow you to resist all forms of it.
    Specially when a person has already managed to mind rape people who have previously been shown to be resistant to it.
    It may not be quantifiable, but it’s easy to powerscale it into perspective.”
    /
    Powerscaling mind rape based on how many people it can mind rape.
    Nevermind that the people have been shown to be mind rape resistant to something else.

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