Kharn the Betrayer Vs Link

Kharn the Betrayer Vs Link

On the surface, this might seem like a slam-dunk victory for Kharn. But part of what makes him vicious is also his weakness. With his chaotic attacks, I think in time Link would be able to hold off until an opportunity to strike Kharn would become apparent.

It would not be a quick fight, but in the end, the warrior from Hyrule would be the victor.

What say you?

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658 Comments on "Kharn the Betrayer Vs Link"

  1. Matapiojo November 19, 2008 at 8:26 am -      #1

    @admin

    Oh, noes. You done did it now (love the pic BTW).

    Ok, lets jump in on this massacre. Everyone knows Link, but here is a link for those of you who dont know the Betrayer:
    wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kh%C3%A2rn

    Ok, the scenario presented has logic. It sure does. However, it is quite simply not possible for Link to even scratch this beast, much less deliver a fatal blow.

    First, we are talking of a Chaos Space Marine. You know, those godly individuals that can arguably make a quick demise of MC. Well, this one is also infused with Chaos energy. He is actually the strongest champion to Khorne, The Blood God (strongest of all Daemon Gods).

    This man has massacred countless other Space Marines, friend or foe. He has fought ceaslessly for TEN THOUSAND years against insurmountable odds without ever being close to death. His fighting prowess surpasses that of Daemon Princes that have fought longer still.

    Gorechild, his chainaxe, is just as deadly as a Jedi Lightsaber. Links shield would be split in two on the first swing, along with the rest of his body That is if it wasnt molden down already by the Plasma shots from his pistol).

    His Power Armour would stop any attack Link could hope to deliver. In addition, he has direct protection from Kohrne, shrugging off the deadliest of wounds and even attacks of a supernatural nature.

    The point is that Link would be nothing but a bloody stump as Kharn continues searching for a worthy oponent.

  2. AlphaCommando November 19, 2008 at 10:55 am -      #2

    Lets compare Link here to a small, cute puppy….
    And Mr. Betrayer here to a wood chipper….

    End result; a particularly wonderful blood spray covering the surrounding area….

    The sight in my mind alone is quite hilarious and entertaining….

  3. Matapiojo November 19, 2008 at 12:01 pm -      #3

    Just a little excerpt that NEEDS to be shared about this raving madman.

    “On the daemon world Skalathrax, shortly after the heresy, the World Eaters and the Emperor’s Children fought. Amid the World Eaters was the champion Kharn. After a full day of vicious fighting, the terrible Skalathrax night began. Horrified, Emperor’s Children and World Eaters alike ran to their shelters, for the freezing night would kill even a Space Marine in a matter of moments.

    Kharn raged over being delayed from battle for even a night. Filled with anger when he saw that his brother Marines were creeping back to the shelters, he took up a flamer and burned them down, slaying with his chain-axe Gorechild any who tried to stop him. The night was filled with the screams of the dying and the freezing as Kharn strode the streets of the dead city of black stone, killing Emperor’s Children and World Eaters alike, burning any shelters he found. The night was lit by flames as the Emperor’s Children and World Eaters fought each other and themselves for the few remaining shelters. By morning, most of the World Eaters were dead, the survivors split into small warbands, the shattered remnants of once great Companies.”

    Survived freezing conditions in a daemon world, all the while burning and hacking away at countless other Space Marines. Link has no hope in hell.

  4. Baron Somebody November 19, 2008 at 1:02 pm -      #4

    whoever that other guy is he looks pretty cool and he looks as he’d pwn link so ill go with him

  5. x on November 19, 2008 at 2:37 pm -      #5

    lmao id pay to see this

  6. x on November 19, 2008 at 4:30 pm -      #6

    have kharn fight samus or darth vader next?

  7. HeroofTime85 November 19, 2008 at 5:06 pm -      #7

    Link would win this. There is quite a bit of proof on this. Kharn would be the most worthy opponent so far, but Link has literal invulnerability. Plus Windwaker took Light Arrows to a whole new level. The Light Arrows can instantly kill anything considered evil (with the exception of Ganondorf, and that is because he had the power of a god). Plus the Master Sword is the Blade to Evil’s Bane. Kharn would stand no chance. PLUS the one weakness Kharn would have as with any who use pure strength and tech is magic.Tech always loses to magic.
    LINK WINS! :mrgreen:

  8. Matapiojo November 20, 2008 at 2:12 pm -      #8

    @HeroofTime85

    No, simply no. Even IF the sword affects “evil”, it still has to go through the mighty Power Armour. Nothing evil about this piece of equipment, just pure awesomeness. The blade would clang harmlessly while Kharn considers Liks’ skull to be worthy enough to be taken or not. Hed probably just butcher the Hyrulean just cause his in the way, not before letting out a chuckle full of pity.

    Link’s invulnerabily would be put to the test by Kharn’s own. Being the champion of the Blood God has many, MANY advantages. The most important of these is to be able to negate any form of magic directed at him. Link’s magical items would have no special properties against the Berzerker.

    I beleive Kharn would even make short work of Ganon (in all his forms). Nothing in The Legend of Zelda even comes close to the might of 40k, a universe that Kharn has made his sandbox like no other.

  9. HeroofTime85 November 20, 2008 at 7:00 pm -      #9

    That is showing your ignorance of the Legend of Zelda (ignorance is not an insult, i’m adding this part in the comment so I don’t start a war.) The armor may not be evil, but the wearer is, plus Link could just hit Kharn with 10 at the most of the Light Arrows (I’ll give you that, because Kharn is powerful, but what I meant in the last comment is that Ganon had the power of a god in him). The effect could go through the armor, and even if you come up with something saying it wouldn’t, the armor can be broke, because I see where the armor was broke in the picture. It was shown on Windwaker that the Light Arrow can go through extremely powerful armor, because when you shoot a Darknut (strongest enemy, other weapons usually can’t break the armor) it goes through the armor and instantly kills it. Plus Link’s invincibility wouldn’t be naegated, because it’s not directed at Kharn. Since they are not one time use items that you add spells to, the only weapons that would have magic negated are the fire and ice arrows. You also underestimate Link’s strength. You can see many, probably not all on my other posts proving this. His strength, plus the added effect of the Master Sword, plus the fact that the Master Sword is a legendary weapon Link would break through his armor. Link was able to chip off a Darknut’s armor piece by piece easily on Twilight Princess with his regular strength. Link also outmatches Kharn with speed (again im not listing them all). Here’s an easy way to winthe fight:
    1. Link dons the magic cape
    2. Link goes up to Kharn unnoticed
    3. Link uses Mortal Draw, instantly dropping his foe
    I really respect you and your opinion Matapiojo. You are the only one that can argue a point that I’ve come across. I don’t want to start a big fight, so if there’s any other point, I’d be happy to to show my side of the arguement. :mrgreen:
    Btw, Matapiojo, thank you for putting up something that makes sense :grin:

  10. x on November 22, 2008 at 11:33 pm -      #10

    I vote for Kharn.

  11. Matapiojo November 24, 2008 at 2:15 pm -      #11

    I dont take insult at all. If I am ignorant about a topic, I preffer to indeed be informed by other. After all, thats the whole reason why we are here. Lemme see if I can adress this.

    First, the issue of Kharn’s armor. Please take a look at this link to explain the basics of Power Armour:
    wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_Armour

    “Possibly the most prominent feature of the Space Marines is their armor which is a synthesis of many technologies that pre-date even the Age of Strife. The suit is comprised of multiple custom crafted ceramite plates with armored fiber bundles and servos that replicate the wearer’s movements and enhances a Space Marine’s already superhuman strength, as well as allows them to easily withstand brutal attacks that would rip a normal human apart. The armor itself can also act as a self-containing environment for the suit’s owner, protecting the space marine from anything including the darkness of deep space and the most toxic environments the universe can provide. The armor interacts with the space marine through the sacred Black Carapace, a subcutaneous membrane that allows the marine’s internal organs to interface directly with the suit of power armor, making the armor in essence an extension of the wearer’s body. The most current armor model is the MkVll or Imperator model and remains the most mainstream suit of armor in use. What few know is that each space marine’s armor is so specific to its wearer that it can not be worn by 2 different marines, so precious is his armor that each space marine swears solemn oaths to honor and maintain its spirit.”

    I need to pint out that the picture does not depict a broken armor. That is the way Kharn chooses to go into combat. Whether this is to help his combat prowess, or if it is purely aesthetic (to make a closer reference to roman gladiator regalias) is unknown.

    The fact is that not having his left arm protected does not mean his Power Armour has been damaged. In fact, it might indicate the opposite. Seeing as this is how he chooses to go to battle, and yet he has never been harmed, shows how rescilient he is. He has been deployed into hazardous environments with this configuration, and still has come out the victor of those battles.

    Second, his weaponry:
    “Massive and ancient; Gorechild is a chain-axe artefact from the great crusade. Gorechild’s jagged whirling teeth were torn from the jaws of mica-dragons on Luther Mcintyre and its shaft is forged of adamantium. Even in the hands of an unskilled user (which Khârn is clearly not) the axe can split an armoured Space Marine from head to crotch. In the hands of the Betrayer, it can deliver devastating blows with deadly accuracy.”

    This weapon is considered a Power Weapon in addition to other properties.
    warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Power_Weapons

    Kharn’s axe is so deadly, that ir can rip easilly through the most heavily armored beings and vehicles in the 40K universe. I can provide further reference to the properties of these armors. Needless to say, I dont know of any equipment Link possesses that might even come close to these.

    Plasma Pistol:
    “Plasma weapons use magnetic fields to accelerate balls of extremely hot gases (plasma) towards the target. Although the guns themselves are quite temperamental, manufacturing of them is very common; plasma weapons find regular use throughout the armies of the Imperium.”

    Kharn’s pistol is as deadly as his Axe in terms of physics and its individual properties. It is capable of absolutely ignoring the already established super strong Power Armour.

    Third, physical properties / capabilities:
    warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Marines (long read but well worth it)
    warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/World_Eaters

    Kharn is a Space Marine infused with daemonic powers directly granted by Khorne. He is stronger than a regular Space Marine, whom are capable of lifting several tons and dismember other humanoids with their bare hands. He is also the single most skilled individual in hand to hand combat in the entire game. It would take me much too long to list the individuals which he is capable of besting in battle.

    As I have mentioned before, and you keep ignoring, Khorne grants him the ability to completely negate any supernatural effect directed at him. Meaning that whoever attempt to fight Kharn, must do so in hand to hand combat. he does not even need to know the attack is comming, simply that is directed at him.

    The arguments that you present are certainly valid, but alas they still amount to being the same. All those wonderfull effects would be negated in combat. Leaving poor link to face one of the deadliest foes in all of the universes with simple speed and strength.

  12. Matapiojo November 24, 2008 at 6:55 pm -      #12

    “The Light Arrows can instantly kill anything considered evil (with the exception of Ganondorf, and that is because he had the power of a god).”

    “The armor may not be evil, but the wearer is, plus Link could just hit Kharn with 10 at the most of the Light Arrows (I’ll give you that, because Kharn is powerful, but what I meant in the last comment is that Ganon had the power of a god in him).”

    This is my point with the effectiveness of any of Link’s equipment. Kharn HAS the power of a God protecting him from anything with supernatural origins. Whomever Kharn’s oponent is, he is in deep trouble.

  13. HeroofTime85 November 24, 2008 at 6:56 pm -      #13

    :mrgreen: Again good arguements. Due to this post I have seriously researched Kharn. In strength, Link would at least match Kharn. I have limited time on the computer for now so i’ll keep this short. Link is also known for being quick and nimble even without any upgrades, with these, although it might not have a huge difference, Link would be faster. The Master Sword, although probably the only weapon because of it automatically having it’s effect, and not having to be blessed, would negate the effect. Although it’s just because he chooses to do this, his left arm shows a vulnerable point. Link always finds a way to exploit an enemies one weakness. If Kharn tried to shoot Link with his pistol, Link could just completely deflect it. This might damage Kharn, might not because it isn’t magic. Link’s mirror shield on a Link to the Past can easily cover his body. Plus Link has gotten hit by the full power of many gods, and easily was standing (without all of the upgrades to his defense) he can use all the upgrades. Notice (like with all debates) I throw only a little at a time at who I’m debating. So if you will argue another point with me (cuz this is fun) I’d be happy to reply. :mrgreen:

  14. HeroofTime85 November 25, 2008 at 6:40 am -      #14

    Ganondorf also has the power of a god. Link has beat him many of times. Link actually has the power of many gods. The Master Sword, much like the Blade of Olympus, has been designed to take down a god. Btw I didn’t get to see your last post because it had been awaiting moderation when I checked BankGambling.

  15. Matapiojo November 25, 2008 at 9:06 am -      #15

    First, I invite you to read over these related topics to space marines and their capabilities:
    factpile.com/archives/851#comment-30648
    factpile.com/archives/832#comment-30647
    factpile.com/archives/1003#comment-30642

    Your devotion and knowledge of Link is commendable. You bring out some interesting points.

    Due to this post I have seriously researched Kharn. In strength, Link would at least match Kharn.

    I dont beleive so, not at all, but I will not dwell on this point because I dont think it bears too much weight on the outcome of the fight.

    Link is also known for being quick and nimble even without any upgrades, with these, although it might not have a huge difference, Link would be faster.

    Also disagree. You dont seem to understand the scope of the pysical capabilities of Space Marines. Their physical attributes are indeed supernatural.

    The Master Sword, although probably the only weapon because of it automatically having it’s effect, and not having to be blessed, would negate the effect. Although it’s just because he chooses to do this, his left arm shows a vulnerable point. Link always finds a way to exploit an enemies one weakness.

    Ok, first trully interesting point. Khorne, The Blood God seems to allow certain weapons to retain their properties when being used against his champion. This may be due to the fact that it tests his favoured son’s skill in combat. I beleive any ranged attack directed at Kharn would be negated of its supernatural properties, but the Master Sword might retain its power.

    Which leaves the matter of the exposed arm. It is true that Link is notorious for spotting and exploiting weaknesses in his opponents. This may be a big mistake by The Betrayer, but I still dont think Link has the capabilities to trully capitalyze on Kharn’s folly.

    A Space Marines movements are blinding to the naked eye. He is able to strike an opponent with his fist within fractions of a mili-second. His opponents cannot even see when he draws his weapon. He can dodge bullets. All of this is done with his armour on.

    Now lets consider this bold statement made by Kharn to not be a statement at all, but to have a true purpose in combat. The Power Armour would enhance the Space Marines already enhanced strength, but perhaps it slows Kharn down. If this is the case, Link would not be able at all to follow The Betrayer’s chainaxe swings. And there is nothing, absolutely nothing, that Link has that can stop Gorechild. Nothing. This weapon tears at Land Raiders with little trouble.

    To top this, you have still not understood the proficiency of the Khorne Berzerker in combat. This man not only matches, but surpasses several supernatural beings in Warhammer 40,000 canon. Avatars of gods have been cut to shreds by this maniac.

    This is another topic with a monstrous creature that Kharn is fully capable of defeating in combat:
    factpile.com/archives/1011#comments

    In hand to hand combat, Link doesnt stand a chance.

    On to the second interesting point.

    If Kharn tried to shoot Link with his pistol, Link could just completely deflect it. This might damage Kharn, might not because it isn’t magic. Link’s mirror shield on a Link to the Past can easily cover his body. Plus Link has gotten hit by the full power of many gods, and easily was standing (without all of the upgrades to his defense) he can use all the upgrades.

    This also brought the fact of Links Mirror Shield protection (in truth, I had completely forgotten about this shield). While I dont think this shield is enough to stop Gorechild in close combat, I do beleive it capable of deflecting Plasma fire. Sure, why not?

    Should Kharn choose to stand and unleash Plasma fury onto Link, the Hyrulean might use this to his advantage. This will be the first point I will grant you.

    However, this is an unlikely scenario. The only times Kharn uses his pistol is to pin his opponents down long enough for him to reach combat. The Berzerker is capable of withstanding a few Plasma shots. He may discard his pistol after the first shot is deflected by the Hyrulean hero and simply rush him. Then again, he may start unleashing Frag Grennades onto Link for the same purpose of keeping him still long enough to be eviscerated.

    ———————

    All in all, nice topic. It turned from being a silly match (in my mind), to having valid arguments. I think this is the reason why we are all here, and not to simply cheer for our selections. Great job, keep em comming.

  16. Matapiojo November 25, 2008 at 9:55 am -      #16

    *shrug*

    Seems like quotations were not propperly updated in my last post. I hope you could make out which were my words and which werent.

  17. HeroofTime85 November 25, 2008 at 6:09 pm -      #17

    Yay more points to argue :mrgreen: Link is not human. He can react much faster than any human. His eyes are superior to the human eye. His mind is also superior. He would be able to process what Kharn does while Kharn is doing it. Link’s speed is unmatched from the pegasus boots, to the pegasus seeds, to even the Bunny Hood and everything in between. I know a Space Marines speed capabilities (One of my friends constantly babbles about Warhammer 40k, but I never truly thought about what he said until now). Kharn would be faster than a regular Space Marine I know, but in my last post that mentioned speed, I was trying to say that the difference in speed would not be great, but still enough. Link’s reflexes (as if they weren’t already fast) would speed up to where Spiderman would look like he’s in slow motion. About what you said with Link’s shields not being able to withstand Gorechild, a good deal (including the Mirror Shield) of Link’s shields are Legendary. These shields can easily withstand any blow with no damage due to the fact they are legendary. I’m not saying that all his shields are all-powerful, because I can tell you, the wood shields and the metal shields (the ones you see in many pictures of Link) could be easily tore through by Kharn like a hot knife slicing through butter, but the mirror shield cannot be lost nor broken. Luckily for Link, the mirror shield on a Link to the Past can deflect any projectile. Link can 1. block a grenade (he can easily block the explosion if not dodge it as shown on many games) or 2. the grenade can be knocked back with the mirror shield. Keep in mind this isn’t hand to hand combat. In the strength catagory. I know Kharn is strong. I say Link would at least match Kharn’s strength if not being stronger. I have read that the silver gauntlets alone will give Link the strength of an army. The Golden Gauntlets multiply this strength tenfold. The Titan’s Mitt would be the equivalent to the Golden gauntlets, multiplying that strength by the equivalent to what Golden gauntlets multiply. With just the power bracelet alone on Four Swords, Link can easily lift a HUGE tree, ripping it’s roots out of the ground. Link would have all these plus more (because again I didn’t list them all.) This match could be decided by the fact that, when in possession of the Four Sword
    1.Link splits into four Links
    2. most importantly Kharn would have to be able to kill all four Links at one time within 10 seconds of the first one before he even uses one of hundreds of fairies stored within the sword. (I got a hundred fifty fairies on my file) These Links are all the strength of what I’ve been talking about, and all have the option of invulnerability. One Link could 1. Hide using the stone mask so Kharn don’t know of he’s there, making Link invulnerable or 2. one could teleport away, making Kharn unable to defeat Link if he was able to manage to defeat the 3, let alone the strength of just one. I got to get off for now. I’ll post later. Add more points please. :mrgreen:

  18. Matapiojo November 26, 2008 at 8:55 am -      #18

    OK

    Next round…

    “Yay more points to argue Link is not human. He can react much faster than any human. His eyes are superior to the human eye. His mind is also superior. He would be able to process what Kharn does while Kharn is doing it. Link’s speed is unmatched from the pegasus boots, to the pegasus seeds, to even the Bunny Hood and everything in between. I know a Space Marines speed capabilities (One of my friends constantly babbles about Warhammer 40k, but I never truly thought about what he said until now). Kharn would be faster than a regular Space Marine I know, but in my last post that mentioned speed, I was trying to say that the difference in speed would not be great, but still enough. Link’s reflexes (as if they weren’t already fast) would speed up to where Spiderman would look like he’s in slow motion.”

    I am by no means contesting Link’s agility or speed, it just that I beleive you have a gross misconception of what Kharn’s own speed is. All those items indeed make Link impressive in combat, but they will leave him outmatched. Thanks to those items, Link would be able to last a little while to exange blows with the Berzerker, but he would still fall to the lightning quick strikes from Gorechild.

    Kharn is much, much faster than Spiderman. I am certain he could at least match Superman’s speed when in combat and fueled by the Rage of Khorne. Contrary to even admin’s opinion, The Betreyer does not swing his axe randomly in hopes to hit something. He is quite literally the finest hand-to-hand combatant in the 40k universe. Period.

    “About what you said with Link’s shields not being able to withstand Gorechild, a good deal (including the Mirror Shield) of Link’s shields are Legendary. These shields can easily withstand any blow with no damage due to the fact they are legendary. I’m not saying that all his shields are all-powerful, because I can tell you, the wood shields and the metal shields (the ones you see in many pictures of Link) could be easily tore through by Kharn like a hot knife slicing through butter, but the mirror shield cannot be lost nor broken. Luckily for Link, the mirror shield on a Link to the Past can deflect any projectile. Link can 1. block a grenade (he can easily block the explosion if not dodge it as shown on many games) or 2. the grenade can be knocked back with the mirror shield. Keep in mind this isn’t hand to hand combat.”

    Like I stated previously, I indeed had forgotten about the Mirror Shield. It would be hard to compare the amazing properties of Gorechild going against that piece of gear. Trust me when I say that the Betrayer’s Chainaxe is as legendary as Link’s most famous shield. My opinion is that it could still be split asunder, but thats not a point i could trully prove. Sinse I still dont think it would be a match-winning factor, I will not continue to argue that point.

    Mind you, I consider this to be the case only with the Mirror Shield. I am certain that any other would be reduced to nothing by Gorechild.

    Link has been seen dodging minor explosions from what would be considered early relics in the field of explosive technology. Kharn’s explosives hail form a future many, many thousands of years ahead of anything you know today. I beleive Link could not possibly survive any detoration from a contemporary concussion or fragmentation grenade, which have several yards of an effective kill-zone, much less from such an advance piece of equipment as the Frag Grenades of the Chaos Marine.

    However, even if Link would survive the shower of incomming shrapnel, that is not the weapon’s main function. Kharn utilizes these to simply force his opponent to take cover. In the case of Link, deviating his shiled to protect himself, leaving obvious openings for the Blood Champion to make a full charge.

    You cannot hope to match Kharns grenades to Link’s shield using the often ludicrous physics of the Legend Of Zelda games. The statement of Link “knocking-back” one of these explosives is as ridiculous as me trying to kick back water that was thrown to me from a bucket. The explosive would simply detonate on impact. The concussive force alone would harm Link. the shield cant protect you from that at such a close range. Maybe it could mitigate some degree of damage, but certainly not all.

    Again, I still think it could deflect or even return plasma fire, but Kharn would simply stop using that tactic the first instance it is exposed as folly.

    “In the strength catagory. I know Kharn is strong. I say Link would at least match Kharn’s strength if not being stronger. I have read that the silver gauntlets alone will give Link the strength of an army. The Golden Gauntlets multiply this strength tenfold. The Titan’s Mitt would be the equivalent to the Golden gauntlets, multiplying that strength by the equivalent to what Golden gauntlets multiply. With just the power bracelet alone on Four Swords, Link can easily lift a HUGE tree, ripping it’s roots out of the ground.”

    This is a point that I find comical. All the feats of strength I have seen Link perform (like lifting and throwing large pillars with the Golden Gauntlets) are easily matched by your regular Space Marine. Space Marines are able to lift several tons, and like Ive stated before, Kharn is a Chaos Lord infused by the power of the Blood God.

    Kharn is MUCH stronger than any Marine. Link’s bones would shatter under the force of Gorechild meeting the Mirror Shield for the first time. Such a tremendous force would render that limb completely useless, if not producing even more catastrophic pysical trauma.

    “This match could be decided by the fact that, when in possession of the Four Sword
    1.Link splits into four Links
    2. most importantly Kharn would have to be able to kill all four Links at one time within 10 seconds of the first one before he even uses one of hundreds of fairies stored within the sword. (I got a hundred fifty fairies on my file) These Links are all the strength of what I’ve been talking about, and all have the option of invulnerability. One Link could 1. Hide using the stone mask so Kharn don’t know of he’s there, making Link invulnerable or 2. one could teleport away, making Kharn unable to defeat Link if he was able to manage to defeat the 3, let alone the strength of just one.”

    Some of the thing pointed out are a bit silly, stone mask or what-not. These will not provide Link a true advantage.

    Splitting into four might become a minor nuisance, but Kharn has completely decimated entire armies of Space Marines, always thirsting for even more combat. That would be a good strategy to run away, though. Just dont bank on it to win you this fight.

    ————————————

    Some of the points you bring serve only the purpose of making the match a bit more interesting. However, they will not win him the fight. The outcome of this fight has been clear from the start. Link’s final fate would be to have his skull be lost under the throne of Khorne.

    I say again, Link cannot win this fight.

    He is simply not en the same league. This maniac belongs in the playground of Darth Vader, Superman, Durge, etc.

    You dont understand the power that runs through Kharn’s veins. Sinse you seem to completely ignore the properties of regular Space Marines, I think I need to make clear the power of Khorne itself.

    Khorne is the Daemon God that dominates any and all spheres of influence that involve combat, blood shed, rage, murder, savagery, brutality, mercilessness, victory, fighting prowess, strength, etc. He is fueled by any all emotions across a entire universe, spanning several galaxies, full of constant and brutal warfare. Trillions of cassualties have fueled his rage and strengthen his dominion. The Skull Throne climbs higher every passing moment with skulls of his fallen oponents (in no small part due to Kharn). Make no mistake, the Blood God is far stronger than any Diety you have ever seen in the world of Zelda.

    Kharn was resurected as his champion after an incredible amount of butchery and mayhem performed against his peers at the fight against the walls of Terra. From that point on, he has faced numerous monstrosities that would make Link quiver like a little girl, and has come out the victor.

    Never close to death.

    Never surrendering.

    He feels no pain.

    He feels no mercy.

    His only concern is to provide his master with worthy blood, no matter where it may come from. He Lived for over TEN THOUSAND YEARS of constant and brutal combat that Link could never even hope to imagine. Always the victor atop mounds of corpses. Link’s only hope is to teleport away and never come face to face with this maniac again.

  19. HeroofTime85 November 27, 2008 at 2:41 am -      #19

    I’ll start this one point at a time I understand Kharn’s speed. I’ve looked up much that talks about it. I am still unconvinced that Kharn would outmatch Link in speed (also just letting you know I have also read that Kharn has fit his fighting style so that every blow hits.) You also don’t realize. Although these things make little sense to us, they are still a factor in these universes (I myself don’t see how any projectile on a Link to the Past can be deflected by the mirror shield yet it happens anyways. You are underestimating Link’s strength. I realize that the Golden Gauntlets would give Link the strength of an average Space Marine, but it’s not Golden Gauntlets alone. It’s a matter of mathematics that some people just don’t understand. With each upgrade Link has (Again not all are listed) his strength is multiplied. For example Golden Gauntlets x Titans Mitt = Golden Gauntlets x X In words if you were to multiply the Golden Gauntlets by the Titan’s mitt, it would multiply Link’s strength by the number that the Golden Gauntlets would multiply it by. Again I say Link would at least match Kharn in strength. With the Mirror Shield, like Gorechild and the Master Sword, being legendary, cannot be broken, It is also made to where it can protect the wearer from anything. You say that I am ignoring the fact that Kharn is the daemon god on Warhammer 40k. You say that that is more powerful than any Deity in LoZ. You underestimate them. Link has the power of many of these deities. Kharn has the power of one. Since we cannot prove that either is more powerful than another (and that in almost all stories, they are made to balance eachother out) we would have to assume that every deity is of equal power. The stone mask as you were dissing would make Link completely unnoticed by Kharn a fact that cannot be escaped, plus the fact that Kharn would have to defeat four Links within 10 seconds, when noone has even been able to prove that Kharn could defeat one. One thing I have yet to mention that may play a huge factor is that Link has control over time. This could play a factor in many ways, but I don’t exactly like the idea myself simply because it would render an opponent defenseless. Plus you say that Kharn lives for battle right? Although there is little known about him, that is exactly what the Fierce Deity lives for. Although there is little released about the Fierce Deity so far, I know a big factor about the Fierce Deity. You remember how powerful the Majora is? In case you don’t I’ll remind you. He is able to control even life itself (shown through turning Kafei into a child, transforming others effortlessly into whatever, cause the moon to start to crash into Termina, etc) because he is so powerful. When he fought the Fierce Deity, in his form (Majora’s Incarnation) he landed one blow on the Fierce Deity (If you beat Majora’s Mask you know how fast this thing attacks.) It did absolutely nothing when it hit the Fierce Deity. In an attempt to be strong enough to do any damage, he turned into Majora’s Wrath (his strongest form) the Fierce Deity effortlessly ended Majora in one blow. One fact you seen to be ignoring is all the facts of Link’s abilities to become invulnerable. He cannot die nor get hurt. You also seem to be ignoring Link’s incredible durability. He can last through anything, plus even if he were to get a wound of any sort (although he could easily take 50+ of Kharn’s blows, he could take that multiplied but I don’t want it to sound rediculous) he can instantly heal himself to max with a quick spell. I haven’t said that Kharn has no chance ONLY because I want to keep this up because
    1. this is extremely fun
    2. It seems like I’m the only one that knows things about LoZ and I want to end the fact that many other LoZ fans don’t know what they’re talking about.

    Please keep this going (and throw in some new points please) I’m not near ready to stop debating this :mrgreen: It’s most fun when I can debate something with you Matapiojo. We’ve kept this debate going so far, let’s make it last longer. :razz:

  20. Jwlynas November 27, 2008 at 10:14 pm -      #20

    Kharn the betrayer vs Link…

    My moneys on the Betrayer.

    Whatever attributes you give link, and I will not dispute them, the simple fact is Link is inexperienced compared to Kharn, and his enemies are ill equipped in comparison to even the basic foot-sloggers that Kharn decimates on a daily basis.

    Link versus someone from the Warhammer fantasy Universe I could see as a fair match, indeed I would probably put link ahead of the vast majority of those heroes (Though Link Versus Malekith would be interesting…Could the Master sword be broken by the Destroyer?…I digress)

    I will concede that the Gorechild (Kharns axe) could possibly be blocked by the Mirror Shield. As powerful as the Gorechild is, it is primarily a power weapon with dragons teeth instead of normal blades. I would even go so far as to say that the mirror shield exhibits much the same abilities, even enhanced abilties, when compared to a collar of Khorne (The user becomes, with skill, able to block magical attacks and even send them back towards the foes… Keeping the user safe from harm when it comes to projectiles of a magical nature)

    This brings the contest back to skill.

    Kharn has fought countless enemies over a period of ten thousand years. Link, if we take all of his adventures into account and even allow that its the same link in every game which can be debated, still can only boast a mere few hundred years. Legendary fighter or no, there is little chance that Link can outfight someone with so much more experience.

    the day we see Kharn in Smash brothers however (Which is a day I pray for constantly) is the day we all know for sure.

  21. HeroofTime85 November 28, 2008 at 12:23 am -      #21

    Link has more experience than you know. Link retains the skill and experience of all the lives he had before. Also the Fierce Deity has lived thousands of years, and all he lives for, much like Kharn is the excitement of battle. Plus it is not just magic that the mirror shield can block and deflect (not that that’s important in this fight) Throw some more points up will ya? :mrgreen:

  22. Jwlynas November 28, 2008 at 10:44 am -      #22

    Ah, was not aware of the retaining of skill or experience, nor this “Fierce Deity” that has suddenly cropped up… Always assumed the Name and title passed to each successive hero. That does alter things greatly.

    Lets put Link in comparison to an Eldar Phoenix Lord then. Preferably Karandras (the preference for green, close combat specialisation… Same pointy hat too)

    Just trying to place into a similar context in universes, for a fair comparison. Now someone may argue Link is more/less powerful than a Phoenix Lord, but for now the comparison will do.

    Phoenix Lords are nigh-immortal souls infused into a mortal body, even if killed all it takes is for one to don the armour and the soul revives. The experience of hundreds, thousands of years is known by all of them and their skills are compared (lore-wise, rather than tabletop-wise) to the Primarchs. (superhuman even compared to the superhuman space marines, best of the best, gentically engineered perfection by someone who is, in essense, God).

    Could Kharn beat one of them… much as I want to say otherwise, no. He couldn’t.

    That Link is really as almighty a God as is claimed is very hard to believe, but then I suppose when taking his levels of strength and experience into a world not made by Nintendo you have to look at things in a whole new, violent and terrifying light.

    Matapiojo, you seem to have a decent knowledge of 40k Lore, Is the Link-Phoenix lord comparison fair, or greatly out of balance?

  23. Matapiojo December 1, 2008 at 9:34 am -      #23

    Jesus, I take a holiday weekend off and this place becomes a mad house. Lets see if we can jump right into this.

    @HeroofTime85

    We have been going back and forth with this, havent we? Lets see if I can find a point where we could all be satisfied with the outcome.

    “Although these things make little sense to us, they are still a factor in these universes (I myself don’t see how any projectile on a Link to the Past can be deflected by the mirror shield yet it happens anyways.”

    I dont beleive we can trully just take how these characters perform in their respective universes to be the end-all-be-all factors to determine these matches. It will always come down to the “he has never been beat, he always wins” argument. The only thing we can truly do is try to match their respective skills and attributes as best we can using simple logic.

    “You are underestimating Link’s strength. I realize that the Golden Gauntlets would give Link the strength of an average Space Marine, but it’s not Golden Gauntlets alone. It’s a matter of mathematics that some people just don’t understand. With each upgrade Link has (Again not all are listed) his strength is multiplied. For example Golden Gauntlets x Titans Mitt = Golden Gauntlets x X In words if you were to multiply the Golden Gauntlets by the Titan’s mitt, it would multiply Link’s strength by the number that the Golden Gauntlets would multiply it by. Again I say Link would at least match Kharn in strength.”

    There is no way I could come close to accepting this argument. The point you bring across is a matter of pure conjecture. First, we have never seen link obtaining all of these items that grant his similar attributes, and when we do see it, the always overlap one another rather than “multiply”.

    If I was to accept this item, then you must accept the following. Kharn grows stronger with every kill, every skull he collects for his God. His Blood Fury throws him into a thrall of mayhem where his speed and strength are enhanced. On a lifespan of ten thousand years (plus some spare change) he has amassed litterally countless corpses. If your theory of multiplication stands, Kharn has acumulated enough strength by this means to split a planet in half with just his arm and chainaxe.

    No, that theory is simply a matter of opinion rather than concrete proof. I beleive it to be void.

    Unless someone else would input otherwise, I think Link’s attributes can only be considered under the “most powerful” pretense. Even across games. The example in this case (correct me if Im wrong) would mean that the most powerful strength enhancement Link gets is from the Golden Gauntlets. In which case, Kharn surpasses.

    “With the Mirror Shield, like Gorechild and the Master Sword, being legendary, cannot be broken, It is also made to where it can protect the wearer from anything.”

    Perhaps. I will concede this point and call it a draw.

    “You say that I am ignoring the fact that Kharn is the daemon god on Warhammer 40k. You say that that is more powerful than any Deity in LoZ. You underestimate them. Link has the power of many of these deities. Kharn has the power of one. Since we cannot prove that either is more powerful than another (and that in almost all stories, they are made to balance eachother out) we would have to assume that every deity is of equal power.”

    Untrue. I will discuss this point in a bit. Please, bare with me.

    “One thing I have yet to mention that may play a huge factor is that Link has control over time. This could play a factor in many ways, but I don’t exactly like the idea myself simply because it would render an opponent defenseless.”

    Another item I will discuss further below. This, singlehandedly might be the one thing in Link’s repertoire that might get him the win.

    “Plus you say that Kharn lives for battle right? Although there is little known about him, that is exactly what the Fierce Deity lives for. Although there is little released about the Fierce Deity so far, I know a big factor about the Fierce Deity. You remember how powerful the Majora is? In case you don’t I’ll remind you. He is able to control even life itself (shown through turning Kafei into a child, transforming others effortlessly into whatever, cause the moon to start to crash into Termina, etc) because he is so powerful. When he fought the Fierce Deity, in his form (Majora’s Incarnation) he landed one blow on the Fierce Deity (If you beat Majora’s Mask you know how fast this thing attacks.) It did absolutely nothing when it hit the Fierce Deity. In an attempt to be strong enough to do any damage, he turned into Majora’s Wrath (his strongest form) the Fierce Deity effortlessly ended Majora in one blow.”

    Quite interesting. Still, discussed further below.

    “One fact you seen to be ignoring is all the facts of Link’s abilities to become invulnerable. He cannot die nor get hurt. You also seem to be ignoring Link’s incredible durability. He can last through anything, plus even if he were to get a wound of any sort (although he could easily take 50+ of Kharn’s blows, he could take that multiplied but I don’t want it to sound rediculous) he can instantly heal himself to max with a quick spell.”

    All amazing attributes, no doubt about it. With his massive arsenal, Link is indeed an individual that can take on just about anything and come out the victor. However, Kharn is his perfect adversary. You still continue to fail in comprehending that as long as all of these attributes are magical…

    …they will not work.

    There is one item that we have only discussed at length, but I think it bares a tremendous amount of weight into everything we have talked about here and before. Lets talk Gods…

    The powers-that-be in LoZ have demonstrated amazing feats. No question about it, they are Gods. But tell me, do the Olympian Gods not answer to the strongest? Zeus is king, and he is so due to his power.

    It is traditionally accepted that Gods draw their power mainly from faith from their subjects (nothe that these need not be human or even sentient). LoZ Gods have a single sphere of influence. The world of Zelda is only a single world.

    The power of the Chaos Gods span across several galaxies, if not further. They are fuled by trillions of emotions and beings. While there are many gods, I will list the top four.

    Khorne – God of battle. He is fueled by bloodshed, strength, combat, murder, mercilessness, savagery, hate, rage, victory, genocide, and mayhem. Undisputably, he is the strongest of the four. He abhores magic and will have none of it. Khorne bends galaxies to his will, and his will is constant war.

    Tzeentch – God of change. He is fueled by mutations, unpredictability, lies, cunning, subterfuge, manipulation, power, knowledge, the arcane, and the obscure. His influence twists events into unimaginable convolutions.

    Nurgle – God of decay. He is fueled by despair, fear, dissease, rot, hopelessness, oblivion, darkness, famine, and destruction. This God revels with every forgotten corpse, every rotting machine, every hopeless suicide. He has left entire galaxies in ruin, forgotten by all other sentient life in the universe…and that suits him just fine.

    Slaanesh – God of indulgence. The yougest of the four. He is fueled by pleasure, decadence, pain, sensory extremes, pharmaecopia, prowess, agility, hubris, fearlessness, greed, lust, and domination. He can provide much pleasure and pain to his subjects and oponents alike.

    These four are the most powerful of an entire pantheon of malicious Dieties. Khorne dominates over these just like Zeus or Odin dominate over their pantheons. While the concepts of the four are not alien to smaller planetary Gods, the fact remains that their power is fueled by an entire universe with millions of planets in constant war.

    The world of Zelda would be a tiny spec to these gods.

    Now, Like you said, we cannot measure true strength of Gods, but by taking into account their sphere of influence we can safely determine that Khorne is far stronger than absolutely anything you could possibly think of.

    Along with Khorne’s strength, comes the absolute hatred of anything magical (which he considers cowardly). He has granted this protection to his chosen champion, Kharn. Absolutely anything magical will simply cease to function as such.

    Items such as the Stone Mask would just not work as the tactic is considered cowardly by the Blood God. The same would go for magic arrows, faries, or even the ocarina of time. If it is magical and prevents from engaging in direct combat, Khorne would simply nullify it. Its as simple as that. So eventhough some of Link’s repertoire might indeed grant him a voctory, Kharn’s Collar of Khorne protects him from those means.

    Link’s invulnerability keeps coming into question. Again, his invulnerability is of magical means. His magical endurance is represented by game-terms in multiple hearts and reduced damage, in addition to magical beings restoring him to full health.

    This amounts to nothing. Even IF this particular element is allowed by the Blood God, It will only add up to the pile of Hyrulean skulls surounding the Berzerker. And yes, I have proven that Kharn is superior to Link in combat and would defeat the hero even if he splits into four, or even if he keeps coming back. Link’s magical arsenal would simply be exausted.

    Like I said, Kharn is Link’s perfect oponent.

    However, many items might still be allowed providing that they only enhance the fighting prowess of an individual. This being the case, things like Link’s sword and shield would be allowed by the Blood god. Maybe even things like the Fierce Diety Mask, Bunny Hood, Golden Gauntlets, etc.

    Which brings me to the Fierce Diety argument. Link came into possession of a mask. Nothing more. He did not receive direct blessing from this being. He does not possess complete protection from this being. He simply dons this mask and gains godly combat proficiency.

    While donning this mask, I think Link might match Kharn in combat. I will concede that with this means, any of the two might be the victor..making this a draw.

    However, one will eventually fall. Should that be Link, then the game is over. Should it be Kharn, we have already seen him be resurected stronger than he was by Khorne. We can safely assume that the Blood Champion will be coming back stronger every time he is felled. There is no hope for Link in the end.

    @Jwlynas

    “As powerful as the Gorechild is, it is primarily a power weapon with dragons teeth instead of normal blades.”

    Just because they say they are teeth, it does not mean they are nothing. Mica Dragon’s teeth are considered stronger than Adamantium. The weapon itself is crafted from that legendary metal, then infused with demonic energies. This weapon rips through the enhanced armor platings of Land Raiders as if they were made of sheet aluminum. The power of this axe is comparable, if not arguably superior, to Star Wars’ Lightsabers. We all know how those perform.

    With Gorechild at his hand, Kharn stands in front of Dreadnaughts and Carnifex hacking them to bits before they ever lay a hand of him. No, I dont think Link’s shield can stop it, but I have conceeded that point to at least allow the hero to have a chance against this goliath.

    “Matapiojo, you seem to have a decent knowledge of 40k Lore, Is the Link-Phoenix lord comparison fair, or greatly out of balance?”

    I would say Phoenix Lords still are far superior to Link in his basic form, even with all of his magical enhancements. However, the Link = Phoenix Lord statement is accurate when considering the Fierce Diety Mask.

    Tabletop Kharn has defeated Karandras (great comparisson, btw) easily. But like you stated, fluff make these beings close to Primarchs. That is also a fact that continues to be overlooked by many. In terms of fluff, Kharn’s might in close combat matches that of primarchs. There is a reason why he is favoured by Khorne over Angron. Primarchs and Phoenix Lords surpass Kharn in many other aspects, but their fighting prowess is at an equal standing. This is my opinion anyways.

    Coupled with the protection of Khorne from all psychic attacks, I beleive Kharn to be fully capable of defeating both Primarch and Phoenix Lord alike.

    For that reason, I think that the match comes to an immediate draw when link dons the powerful mask. Yet, Kharn will be victorious in the end for the resurection scenario I mention above.

  24. HeroofTime85 December 1, 2008 at 6:51 pm -      #24

    You are now using a ressurection factor. You forget that over the Zelda games Link is always ressurected. The Fierce Deity mask turns Link into the Fierce Deity. Forget having blessings from a Deity when are the Deity. You are now changing what you said earlier (thus showing a sign that you are struggling with this arguement) you said that Kharn’s armor protects him from magic directed at him, now you’re trying to say he cancels all magic. I know this untrue. You have no proof that any god on Warhammer 40k is more powerful than any on LoZ. The Zelda universe is not just 1 world. It includes many alternate dimensions. The gods on LoZ outnumber if not outmatch in a one on one with the Warhammer 40k. Khorne is not making the rules here, admin is. Link’s items are all allowed. I said Link at least has equal strength to Kharn, I never said he severely outmatches him in this category. Link is far superior to a Pheonix Lord in his forms

  25. Matapiojo December 2, 2008 at 8:38 am -      #25

    “You are now changing what you said earlier (thus showing a sign that you are struggling with this arguement) you said that Kharn’s armor protects him from magic directed at him, now you’re trying to say he cancels all magic.”

    Completely incorrect. Now you are resorting to find flaws in arguments that are simply not there. I cannot have said anything of the sort because I am absolutely clear on Kharn’s attributes.

    The Betrayer has a suit of Chaos Armour (which is a suit of Power Armour slightly imbued with Chaos energies, but not enough for it to be considerably different from the loyalist counterpart).

    Aside from that, he has the protection of Khorne, which negates any magic source directed at him.

    Please go re-read my posts without interpreting points to be bent to your advantage. These are a couple of my quotes and the appropriate posts for you to reference back to:

    Post #1 – “His Power Armour would stop any attack Link could hope to deliver. In addition, he has direct protection from Kohrne, shrugging off the deadliest of wounds and even attacks of a supernatural nature.”

    Post #8 – “No, simply no. Even IF the sword affects “evil”, it still has to go through the mighty Power Armour. Nothing evil about this piece of equipment, just pure awesomeness. The blade would clang harmlessly while Kharn considers Liks’ skull to be worthy enough to be taken or not. Hed probably just butcher the Hyrulean just cause his in the way, not before letting out a chuckle full of pity.

    Link’s invulnerabily would be put to the test by Kharn’s own. Being the champion of the Blood God has many, MANY advantages. The most important of these is to be able to negate any form of magic directed at him. Link’s magical items would have no special properties against the Berzerker.”

    Post #11 – “First, the issue of Kharn’s armor. Please take a look at this link to explain the basics of Power Armour:
    wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_Armour”

    and…

    “As I have mentioned before, and you keep ignoring, Khorne grants him the ability to completely negate any supernatural effect directed at him. Meaning that whoever attempt to fight Kharn, must do so in hand to hand combat. he does not even need to know the attack is comming, simply that is directed at him.”

    Post #15 – “Khorne, The Blood God seems to allow certain weapons to retain their properties when being used against his champion. This may be due to the fact that it tests his favoured son’s skill in combat. I beleive any ranged attack directed at Kharn would be negated of its supernatural properties, but the Master Sword might retain its power.”

    Please, dont try to twist my words so that your argument carries more weight when all you need to do is scroll up and sort out my previous statements. Never in any of those posts did I say Kharn’s armor protects him magically, I said Khorne’s blessing does.

    —————————————

    “You have no proof that any god on Warhammer 40k is more powerful than any on LoZ. The Zelda universe is not just 1 world. It includes many alternate dimensions. The gods on LoZ outnumber if not outmatch in a one on one with the Warhammer 40k. Khorne is not making the rules here, admin is. Link’s items are all allowed.”

    No one has any proof of anything we match here. We would have to see official crossovers for such statements. All we can do is compare and argue the points presented. The simple argument is that the Deities in 40k FAR outnumber the ones we know of LoZ. Chaos alone outnumbers them, not to mention the other Gods in the universe.

    My argument for power is simple and grossly unquestionable. Sure there is no real way to measure them, but I present a sensible assumption…scope. LoZ, perhaps multi-dimensional, is still just one world. Limitting the sphere of influence over just one world. 40k Gods spread their influence over millions of sentient life worlds. Mathematically speaking, LoZ God-power is dwarfed by 40k’s.

    admin states rules, i dont see a problem with that and have never questioned it, but no statement has been made that says Kharn’s blessing is off the equation. Thats like saying Superman is not gonna be strong for one fight because there is no prescence of a yellow sun, or that Spiderman’s Spider-sense would not trigger in these matches. To negate effects and abilities that are innate to the characters would be blatant favoritism over fights. In addition, I didnt say Link’s items werent in the fight, just that their effect would be negated due to Kharn’s own, leaving the non-imbued items to clang harmlessly onto his armour.

    “I said Link at least has equal strength to Kharn, I never said he severely outmatches him in this category. Link is far superior to a Pheonix Lord in his forms”

    Simply no. One, Link is not equal in strength, he is below. The strength comparrison that would be appropriate would be Link = Spiderman, and Kharn = Fantastic Four’s Thing. Spiderman is very strong, but the Thing is far stronger. That is of course, if we follow reason rather than your absolutely outlandish “multiply” theory.

    The discussion of comparing Link to a Phoenix Lord would be another thread altogether. Sufice to say that in Fierce Deity form he is equal does NOT make Link superior. I conceeded a MAJOR point there, but you managed to undermine it and turn it to a “Link is best” statement.

    Much as I hate to say it because this has been entertaining, a considerable amount of your last post entered the realm of a fanboy. True, we are all fanboys to some extenct, but such arguments just plunge into senselessness after that line is cross.

    I think this might be it….

  26. Jwlynas December 2, 2008 at 12:07 pm -      #26

    Link has, maybe, two factors working for him in thisd match up

    1. Development. link has had numerous games, books, tv shows based on his exploits, which means that as a hero so much more can be known. Kharn, by comparison, has had three editions worth of rules, a single, short story and a brief mention in a couple of Black Library books.

    The rules given haven’t been that extensive (Basic stat upgrades on a basic chaos marine, a few chaos gifts and his “Betrayer” rule) , and tabletop doesn’t match lore in any rate, so we only need refer to them when it comes to Chaos gift lore and his axe.

    2. Link is the protagonist, alone in that universe. Everything revolves around him. Kharn is one of thousands of lords. Admittedly, he is the most prolific Khornate Lord, and one of the more prolific Special characters (Never stays at home, is always on the march to new battlefields)

    Alas, Link wanders in worlds filled with spitting plants, fairies and . Kharn wanders in lands of Chaos warped planets where the very ground is
    liable to eat you, Hulking technologically powered supermen and ships capable of glassing an entire planet from orbit, and he still manages to be one of the most feared men around. Entire galaxies have died to his rage, whole populaces killed.
    Link has yet to properly finish off his first and only nemesis of note. Ganondorf/Ganon.

    Kharn uses a demonically powered chainaxe, a plasma pistol capable of burning a hole in the sides of tanks and is the single most proficient fighter goins

    Link uses a boomerang, gunpowered powered bombs and a number of magic weapons. lets put that in context. Plasma grade weaponry, Technologically advanced weaponry that fires superheated metat that, canonically, has the strength of a mini supernova.
    versus
    Gunpowder…

    The magic weapons I think Khorne would not worry about. Link is not as good a fighter as Kharn (He needs to learn the skills again and again in each new incarnation, suggesting the skills do not carry over. The various links have been described as ancestors, not reincarnations, of previous links and so…Yeah.

    Kharn Wins, Next topic Admin.

    Possibly Kharn versus Sephiroth.

    oooh, Kharn versus Sephy…now thats a match that’ll be epic. And Final fantasy 7 characters have had a heck of an upgrade after the recent Crisis core updates.

  27. HeroofTime85 December 2, 2008 at 7:04 pm -      #27

    I’m sorry my mom got up and was mad so I couldn’t finish my post which yes made it sound kinda bad. You have said it negates magic directed at Kharn, then it went to any magic, now it’s back to directed. Which is it?!? Link’s invulnerability and most of his magic are not directed toward his enemy therefore they will work. You are now either 1. misinterpreting what I said about the Fierce Deity or 2. I messed up my typing due to having to get off the computer. I never said that the Fierce Deity is superior to Kharn. I was saying that the Fierce Deity is equal to Kharn. I never finished my post or got half of it done thoroughly like I usually do. So disredard like half of it. About the rules thing, I was trying to say that since this is a 1 on 1, Khorne would not be able to prevent Link from using magic directed toward himself. I know that it sounded like I was trying to weaken Kharne, but I was not, I’ve just been pushed for time lately and have made mistakes. The upgrades to Link’s strength would multply the effects of his current strength and because he has a ton of upgrades throughout his games, I’m saying he has at least equal strength, but because no matter the outcome, this factor will not play a huge role, I’m not even gonna mention strength. Like I’ve said before, how else would Link have beyond a master’s skill with completely alien technology, he retains the skill and always gets stronger with his next life. I know there are many worlds on Warhammer 40k that the gods rule, but (comedy moment, advert your gaze) are they really doing a good job as to let worlds turn to wastelands??? (comedy moment over, you can look now) the triforce alone (this is just a section of power that just three goddesses created) is strong enough to allow anyone who touches it have any wish, no matter what it alters. Plus then again this is Link vs Kharn not LoZ vs Warhammer 40k. We’ve both let this go off-track. If we talk about the power of the gods/goddesses we need to talk about the ones our characters have. Another thing to take into effect is how much power of these gods/goddesses do they have in them. We’ll talk about this in our next comments. Either way on to what you said Jwlynas very few points of what you said even have a point. First thing’s first. Link has killed Ganondorf many times, but since Ganondorf is like Link in the fact the he is always ressurrected due to the Triforce, Link will constantly kill Ganondorf, getting stronger every time, that is why Ganondorf will not permanently die. About the weapons
    1. almost all of Link’s weapons are Legendary, this type of weapon is considered stronger than a technology based weapon
    2. I agree with Matapiojo that the Master Sword’s power alone would be on par with Gorechild
    You completely ignore half of the enemies that Link has to fight. Most (not all) bosses on LoZ are more powerful than a Space Marine, while both are extremely powerful one of the things that brings the bosses down so easily by Link is Link’s ability to always find an enemy’s one flaw and use that to take them out. Link has used sheer power instead of smarts in some cases to destroy an enemy with the power of a god. (If you have noticed, the boss of each game has power like this. Think about how the three most known bosses: Ganondorf, Majora, and Vaati all have the power of a god yet Link defeats them easily. Link, like Kharn, hasn’t lost a fight. Sephiroth vs Kharn wouldn’t even be a fight. Kharn could easily beat Sephiroth. That wouldn’t even be a satisfying fight.
    This post is starting to get a little aggressive. I’m trying to keep it calm (that’s why I add humor) so please do the same. This is fun, I kinda wanna keep it like that. :mrgreen:

  28. Matapiojo December 3, 2008 at 9:15 am -      #28

    Alrighty, Ill take into consideration that your post may have been incomplete. Its all gravy. So lets go back to square one.

    I see how my words may come to be confusing about the magic-nullification element. Yes, as far as I know the magic must be directed at Kharn somehow, but that does not mean that it has to be a form of attack or even enchantments that are meant to land on the Betrayer. For example; Say that Kharn was to come to face an opponent like Harry Potter (major giggles). Harry knows death when he sees it and comes up with the brilliant plan of putting on his invisibility cloak to deliver a fatal blow. Harry would go invisible without a problem, but the magical invisibility would simply dissipate as soon as an attach is directed at the Berzerker.

    Bottom line is that I DO mean any magic, so long as it has a direct impact on Kharn’s person. Maybe Link pops out the Ocarina of Time and tries to manipulate the fight that way. Best case scenario is that Link goes nowhere and looks at the ocarina with major curiosity. Worst case? Link becomes trapped in the nether of time bacause the effect was not allowed to finalize. There is no true way anyone could predict how and when the effects will be cancelled, simply that they will be.

    Another fact to be considered into the actual combat is how the hero will react to the unknown and unpredictable nullification. Link cannot afford a simple milisecond of inaction against this beast of a man, but Im sure it would cause him pause to consider how and why his stuff is not working how it is supposed to. A brief pause is all it takes for this 10-foot tall goliath to turn Link into a 100 yard long red smear on the floor.

    Note that eventhough his magic nullification has indeed rendered Imbued weapons (like 40k’s Force Weapons) completely useless, I am not disputing the Master Sword. The blade would work as normal, even be able to cause some damage to Kharn’s Chaos Armour. On that note, Gorechild is not just a technological weapon. It is a Master Crafted weapon that is Daemonically infused. We can see the legendary chainaxe drink souls of people and even other Daemon items in the short story “The Wrath of Kharn”.

    We could probably go on days as to what would be affected by this effect, what wouldn’t, and anything in between. The fact remains that the great majority of Link’s arsenal is magical in nature, and Khorne could simply do away with it should he deem it so.

    On another post you pointed out the resurection element. It DOES come into play. Lets first consider this. Kharn has not been close to death after his rebirth as Khorne’s Champion. We dont trully know the potency of his immortality. Even IF he could be put down, he has already been resurected once, stronger, faster, deadlier. There is nothing to indicate that it will not happen again.

    Lets say that all of link’s “heart” magic is still not cancelled (including the resurecting faries). Kharn has more than enough skill, rescillience, endurance, determination, and tenacity to simply outlast all of those means, and in addition to all that he has Khorne whatching over his shoulder to pop him back up should he fall. Unlike Link’s methods of prolonged life to keep fighting, Kharn’s own methods are unlimited. The Betrayer will continue to hack until Link comes back no more.

    In addition to Kharn’s own fighting prowess, he has several other blessings. One is the ability to Feel No Pain. Not that it has trully been tested, but he brushes off many, MANY wounds that might fall a regular Space Marine. The Word Eater also has the Rage of Khorne, making him grow stronger and faster when in the full thrall of combat.

    I point all of this because Khorne has a direct impact on the battle. Link aquires a few attributes from the LoZ gods, he is after all the Hero of Time, but Kharn is the champion of a particularly strong deity. Khorne directly watches over his most devout follower in a universe filled with bloodshed.

    Sinse you continue to bring out the fact that Link has defeated beings with powers of a God (even that he IS a God), then the Khorne’s strength and influence will continue to form part of the debate. Much as you would like to keep it Link – Kharn debate only, it just comes with the territory of these two particularly blessed oponents.

    “I know there are many worlds on Warhammer 40k that the gods rule, but (comedy moment, advert your gaze) are they really doing a good job as to let worlds turn to wastelands??? (comedy moment over, you can look now)”

    Funny, but keep in mind that it is a grim far future. These worlds are brought to ruin be cause that IS the will of those Gods. C’Tan want to make everything lifeless. Chaos wants to make everything corrupt. Gork and Mork just want to WAAAAAAGH! Khaine simply wants to avenge. And so on, and so on. The only one that wants something positive is the God Emperor of Mankind, but what he wants is just selfish and completely at the expense of others.

    Anyways, back on topic. Lets just face it. Even if Link manages to win (which I still disagree with), Kharn will just keep coming back indefinitley. He will outlast Link. In many ways it is as you say between Link and Gannondorf, but in reverse with Kharn.

  29. HeroofTime85 December 3, 2008 at 6:23 pm -      #29

    In my previous post, when I was talking about coming back to life, I didn’t just mean when he is revived by faires of some sort, I meant what you meant with Kharn. That Kharn would be brought back to life by Khorne. This is how it is for Link (sorry for the confusion) due to the Triforce of Courage. While both opponents will never permanently fall, this is a battle uninterfered with by outside forces (meaning that this is not a battle to permanently kill the opponent because it would never happen. In this battle, unless Kharne had an item such as a pheonix down, he wouldn’t come back, but neither will die forever. Link’s methods of coming back to life are also unlimited. It’s a battle, not a permanent war. I never meant what I said about the wastelands (that’s why I put comedy moment) so disregard that statement. I was also saying that we should save the god debate for a LoZ vs Warhammer 40k, and that we should focus on what Link and Kharn have, and how much of the god’s power Link and Kharne got from them. (I mean no offense by putting Link’s name before Kharn). About the magic, the magic spells and Link’s Fire, Ice, and Light arrows would be the only things affected because, the disadvantage to Kharne’s armor is that (correct me if I’m wrong) it gained it’s special properties by being blessed. Link’s magic items were made to automatically have the effect (no adding on was put to the items) I say a magic projectile would have absolutely no effect against Kharne, but the items automatically have an effect as long as used on Link (which these are the items I’m talking about. This means that the only invulnerability items Link would have sadly are the Magic Armor on Twilight Princess and the Staff of Byrna, because the most of the rest are spells. Link is not human, and he has better focus than practically anyone. If an item was not to work, he wouldn’t stop just to look at it (a very simple example are those spiked turtles, I can’t seem to remember their names, if something doesn’t work, Link doesn’t just stop to look at it (another comedy moment) although in the games, to let the player read the description and get a good veiw, Link magically levitates and turns the item in the air looking at it (Comedy moment over, I never actually mean these moments). I disagree when you say that Kharn has more skill, yet since there is no way to prove it, we might as well drop that part. Link, as I have said before has one of the strongest endurances to ever exist, I do believe that being as strong as he is Kharn may be able to match it. Determination is a factor that Link unmatched in. I know you may disagree, but Link showed this by doing something that would be impossible for anyone else to do by resisting the effects of the Fierce Deity mask. I might end up explaining later. I will admit that I have no clue what rescillience and tenacity are being just in my second year as a teen. If you would explain that to me, I would appreciate that.
    I don’t know about you, but I consider us friends, so please keep em comin. :mrgreen:
    I’d like to help or argue with you with other posts, and thanks for keeping insults out of this :mrgreen:

  30. Matapiojo December 4, 2008 at 9:15 am -      #30

    Wait, you may be discarding the resurection point a bit too quickly.

    Faries aside, we know that Link keeps coming back at diferent points in time/dimension due to his part of the Triforce. That is undisputable, but this may not be the scenario with Kharn. You are assuming that the Berzerker champion gets reicarnated as is the case with Link. He is litteraly resurected, which could very well be right on the spot.

    Say that Link manages to slay the Marine. Lets even say that Kharn is unable to ignore the grievous wound (I already stated he has this ability). Khorne might simply say -“You are not done yet, my son. I want his skull at the foot of my throne!”-, and the wound simply seals up and the Betrayer rises angrier, faster, and stronger than ever before.

    Very different from the “Meeting each other on another life” scenario you describe. Kharn’s resurection factor comes directly into play uppon ANY immediate fight he is in.

    You also continue to interpret and disregard what you see fit to your argument’s advantage when it comes to Kharn’s defense attributes. Let me try and clarify…yet again.

    Chaos Armour = Equal to imperial Power Armour in every way, but infused and crafted with Daemonic energies. This Daemonic infusion enhance its attributes only slightly. This piece of gear protects the marine from almost every form of natural attack. Only the most powerful weapons or beings may tear into this carapace. His armour can even withstand a few blows from a Lightsaber before being split asunder. This item is NOT the one responsible for Kharn’s protection from supernatural elements.

    Protection of Khorne = Sometimes represented in the tabletop game as the Collar of Khorne. This representation is purely for game clarity and balance, but it is not trully present in the form of an item. The protection from his god nullifies all forms of supernatural effects directed at Kharn. This protection may be from direct attacks, or even indirect effects that would have in impact uppon Khorne’s champion. The Blood God has a particular distaste for magic, which he considers highly cowardly.

    Arrows would not be the ONLY items to be affected. Everything magical in Link’s arsenal that has the intent of defeating Kharn out of direct close combat will be useless. Khorne simply does not approve.

    Physical enhancements = Aside from the regular Space Marine enhancements (which already places these beings as being as strong as The Thing, as fast and agile as Spiderman, and as skilled in hand-to-hand as Wolverine), Kharn has been considerably enhanced by Khorne in all of those aspects. With these enhancements he might come close to matching Superman’s strength and speed.

    In addition, he has been blessed with the Rage Of Khorne, which enhances those physical attributes even further when engaged in combat. To top all this off, Khorne’s blessings also allow the Betrayer to ignore most wounds, many of which simply heal immediately.

    What does this all mean?

    Armour protects from regular attacks + Khorne protects from magic + ignores/heals most wounds + the capacity to come back to life on the spot + probably the most skilled fighter in 40k universe = one nearly impossible to beat combatant.

    You are indeed knowledgeable of Link, no question about it, but you have not presented anything logical that would veer me (and honestly, most everybody else) from considering Kharn to be the clear winner of this match.

    ———————————————————

    We have danced to this tune for some time now. Most of your arguments have solid base, but cary more than a small drop of fanatism. I dont think you and I will ever agree.

    I beleive the time has come to allow others to analyze the extensive points we have made and cast their votes.

  31. HeroofTime85 December 4, 2008 at 8:52 pm -      #31

    Ah as with your arguements with me. The reason I don’t stop my arguements is because I know that I am the only one (aside from the creater) that truly knows practically everything about LoZ, and that people don’t put the pieces to these puzzles together as carefully as I do. People usually side with a character just because they like them better. I admit that I like Link the best, but the only reason I came to like him so well is because I realized his power. Since then, I learned more and more. I finally decided that Link was my favorite after analyzing all this information. People will most likely vote for Kharn because they think that he is cooler. You are the only person that will actually present an argueable fact on this site which is the reason I joined this site. To start to spread some of my knowledge of LoZ, and to hone my debating ability. I cannot backdown just because one person keeps insisting on things. Since most people consider Kharn cooler, instead of taking the facts into consideration. Now to put up what is the final arguement you will read on this post. Kharn would not just heal a wound from the Master Sword up. The Master Sword is the Blade to Evil’s Bane. In other words, since Kharn wouldn’t be able to shrug a wound from the Master Sword off like that. Kharne would not be able to nullify Link’s magical item’s abilities because, just realize that Khorne is not the strongest thing to ever exist. Khorne (like everything eventually) will be defeated. Who cares about Superman? Superman has a weakness, and so does Kharn. Link is the kryptonite when Kharn is Superman. Khorne’s power will be nullified, if not overpowered by the gods/goddesses that Link has on his side. Kharn is like Majora, while Link is the Fierce Deity in the fact that Kharne is one of the most powerful, but he would be defeated. I still consider you a friend Matapiojo, I hope you consider me one. We’ll argue again, but as allies next time. :smile:

  32. Jwlynas December 4, 2008 at 10:59 pm -      #32

    Aww, no Alliance for me?
    I’m hurt…

    Khorne may eventually be defeated, but not by Link. The very act of fighting his warriors makes him stronger. As a God of war, Bloodshed (you’ve heard all this before, so i won’t reiterate it) Khorne gains power when battle commences. Now, in Warhammer 40K this makes him particularly powerful as “In the grim darkness of the future, there is only war”

    For link to win he would need to cull all war and violence in the various multiverses before somehow subduing Kharn without fighting him. Now Kharn, even without Khornes numerous blessings, is a dangerous foe indeed.

    Links repeated clashs with ganondorf, plus his life of endless turmoil against the various enemies he faces, could well empower Khorne more, meaning more power can be attributed to his favoured one.

    And before the “Then if link doesn’t fight Kharn then Kharn has no power” card is played, as before stated, Kharn is a mighty warrior in his own right, easily capable of defending and attacking with the best of them, Godly assistance or no.

    Think of it this way. Every time you fight back, he gains equal to or just under how much was taken off of himlifepoints, and every time he attacks you lose A good chunk of life. if he kills link he gets his full vitality back, plus an extra point on any one statistic. To fight him is to strengthen him, and to not fight is to die.

  33. AlphaCommando December 4, 2008 at 11:38 pm -      #33

    I sat this one out because Mata was doing a damn good job, but I felt like I had to say something….

    It comes down to whose deity is more powerful. One fueled by every single drop of blood spilt in a hundred thousand millennia, or a pantheon who feeds off positive energies.

    Khrone is the strongest of four gods, the youngest (and theoretically weakest) of these gods Slaanesh; completely eliminated the entirety of the Eldar pantheon or Gods when he was born, cast down the Eldar to near extinction and absorbed entire parts of the galaxy into the Eye of Terror…and that was over ten thousand years ago.
    In the 40K universe nobody is good, nobody will win, in the end the entire galaxy will be consumed by the war that fuels it, the Eldar will be wiped away and the reborn emperor and the armies of man will duel the Gods and their servants to oblivion….40K is darker and more fatalistic than even Viking lore.

    Weapons that are more powerful against evil require the plot and concept of their respective universes, its entirely relative to the situation thrust upon the characters as part of the universe….Its does back to the whole “what is evil?” thing, evil from the standpoint of an idealistic hero is something entirely different in a universe where nobody is the good guy, and there is no ideology that presents itself as overruling. Relativity is a crippling factor to these fights and any power that combats “evil”….its all relative.

  34. L-W December 5, 2008 at 2:58 am -      #34

    Well strictly speaking, from a theologist viewpoint, chaos is not evil. In fact, out of all the possible viewpoints dictated by the standing morality of the overall sum of the universal Noosphere (The Noosphere representing the total summation of sentient thought), chaos is the most nonaligned.

    Whereas more evil has been harboured by conscripted order and formality, chaos only expresses the aperiodic deterministic behaviour of the environment. Not even the Chaos Gods themselves have an agenda or an expressed formality to their conscription; and neither does Kharn who as an agent of Chaos follows no such orders in his destruction.

    He is not bad. He simply does.

    If an agent of Chaos were to confront Link, his supposed anti-evil weaponry (Designed to thwart Ganadorf, whose plans did employ a formal means of operational ideology and thus could be considered evil) I doubt it would suddenly *activate* or even conjure the evil destroying properties they are famed for. Kharn does represent evil, he represent Chaos…

    …Which is ironic itself…

    …Which would appear as a non-entity within the context of Links magical capabilities. His weapons would be limited to the readily available properties they already posess, such as durability, tensile strength and penetrative effects upon Space Marine power armour.

  35. Matapiojo December 5, 2008 at 9:44 am -      #35

    “Relativity is a crippling factor to these fights and any power that combats “evil”….its all relative.”

    I absolutely agree with Alpha’s statement and stand by it to the end. However, I will try to play a little devil’s advocate in the sense that I will give Link still some valid points in order to completely flesh out this match. HeroofTime85 seems to be the only one willing to go to such great lengths to present intelligent arguments for Link.

    You are right to say that the Master Sword is the bane of evil. Like Alpha said, considering Kharn “evil” is relative. He is most certainly brutal and merciless. He would be considered evil by many, but he might also be considered a champion by others. He lives for combat. He doesnt thrive in spreading the word of his god, just his will, and the will of Khorne is to shed blood.

    A single man living in a planet that is overrun by Orks might see Kharn as a beacon of light once the Marine drops to the surface and decimates the opposition. Sure, the man would be wise to not approach this goliath at any point, but the fact would remain that he was saved by the Betrayer.

    Relative.

    Lets say that the Master Sword does indeed consider Kharn to be worthy of its wrath. I will agree to this point. Note that I have agreed to the Master Sword retaining its power for quite some time. Kharn would not be able to ignore these wounds. However, I have not agreed at all that Link would be able to land these blows in the first place. Contrary to what you beleive, I still consider Kharn to be skilled enough to slaughter Link without the hero ever landing a single hit.

    Lets say that through some miracle that DOES happen. Lets even say that within that miracle, Link managed to land a fatal strike with the Master Sword onto a ten-foot tall man that is much stronger, faster, and rescilient. Lets even say that his advanced genetics/daemonic powers dont heal the wound. Khorne indeed can resurect him on the spot.

    I know that within our argument, there was an attempt at seeing the fight without the influence of the deities backing up these combatants. I have already stated that this is simply not possible because they are embedded into both fighter’s very beings.

    Khorne is evil. Sure is. He is also indeed one of the strongest beings to have ever been conceived in any universe, in any story. I tried to illustrate that before, but apparently I wasn’t very clear. Jwlynas and Alpha just made this point iron-clad. No matter what properties the sword has, they are simply not sufficient. Nothing Link has is.

    Bottom line is, the victor of this match is very clear to most everybody; Kharn, plain and simple. I still applaud you because you have actually made strong arguments to cause pause even in me. I weighed your points and logically matched them against the points made to the Berzerker’s favor at every turn. you made this match fun and I hope others are able to see that.

    I do hope there are others that join into this and post their views. Trully, I turned fanboy at the start of this match because I though admin made a funny. I thought this was a joke bordering on insult, but you never know when a curveball is thrown into the mix that might change what we consider to be a final answer. Very entertaining match.

  36. Matapiojo December 5, 2008 at 11:23 am -      #36

    “Well strictly speaking, from a theologist viewpoint, chaos is not evil. In fact, out of all the possible viewpoints dictated by the standing morality of the overall sum of the universal Noosphere (The Noosphere representing the total summation of sentient thought), chaos is the most nonaligned.”

    Correct. From OUR point of view, what the Chaos gods stand for is evil, but from the larger spectrum of things they just are. They are the manifest of the emotions felt across the universal spectrum given tangible form.

    Khorne is feared by humanity for his desire of bloodshed and slaughter, but he is also fueled by possitive emotions such as Strength, Willpower, Glory, Victory, Perseverance, Prowess, Skill, Triumph over Adversity, etc.

    Personally, I do consider him evil, but that is just my oppinion. In truth Khorne just is what he is. Nothing more, nothing less.

  37. Jwlynas December 5, 2008 at 2:28 pm -      #37

    Alas the “Chaos isn’t evil it just is” Viewpoint has been debunked in the latest Codex: Deamons, which has shown the chaos Gods as omnipotent, malevolent forces that feed on their respective emotions (Anger, Despair, Lust and Plotting)

    Chaos is evil, if only because there is no righteous path to Chaos. It is only attainable by excess and by complete disregard of all other beings. And that in itself is intrinsically a negative force of motive, and those can only be described as evil.

    Now had it been last edition Chaos Gods, I would have agreed.

    And even so, I think Kharn The Betrayer is undeniabley evil. No virtuous soul was ever known as “The Betrayer” after all, and no virtuous, or even vaguely good, person has ever spoken the words “Kill, maim, burn”

  38. AlphaCommando December 5, 2008 at 4:53 pm -      #38

    But all evil is relative, dependent on one’s point of view…

    And virtue is just a human concept that yet again leads to wither or not something is moral, which is another human concept about moving past straight emotion. The chaos gods are straight emotion, its is their nature. Just as a wolf is not evil for killing some person’s cow….And their servants are blinded by this influence, manipulated to be the tools of these Gods…

    The codex describes them as evil from the standpoint of a normal, moral human….mainly as to not alienate people.

  39. L-W December 5, 2008 at 6:32 pm -      #39

    Exactly, Humans judge the basis of morality on what is a very limited and closely defined parameter of expression based on an extremely miniscule foundation of knowledge preserved by our unique evolutionary circumstances. We find ourselves to be the judges of evil, yet we ourselves have only witnessed a fingernails width of history and therefore lack that insight as a collective.

    The Chaos Gods are entities of pure emotion, they are the summation of both “Good and Bad” sentient thought and will; and by definition neither chaos nor emotion itself are evil entities. Not even the more socially ungraceful or culturally unacceptable emotions should be considered evil by any account; they are merely expressions of chemical imbalances and are deterministic to the intrinsic behaviour of the environment.

    “malevolent forces that feed on their respective emotions (Anger, Despair, Lust and Plotting)”

    What’s wrong with any of those? Anger, despair, lust and plotting are perfectly reasonable human expressions which are entirely dependent on intent and agenda. What is lust even doing in that list?! Have we gone so far as to deny our own evolution as to point fingers at anger now?

    “and no virtuous, or even vaguely good, person has ever spoken the words “Kill, maim, burn”

    Are you kidding?

  40. Jwlynas December 5, 2008 at 8:01 pm -      #40

    Well if theres anyone who doesn’t see what the chaos gods do for fun as evil, then I’ll willingly take back my statement.

    As it is Khornate people kill indiscriminately, men women and children, carving the flesh from the skulls so bone shows all in the name of a deity, Nurgle followers unleash plague after plague upon everyone regardless or guilt or innocence so the peoples of the universe decay and die in the most horrific ways, Slanneshi types frequently rape and drug anything they find, including each other, and go to the most extremes possibly for the ultimate “fix” And tzeentchians are so obsessed with power that they would happily condemn a hundred worlds or more just to know of a single spell.

    These are evil acts, and these are the Acts the Chaos Gods prefer. They can gain power from small acts, but they prefer the huge, extravagant, overwhelming, undeniably evil acts because they…are…EVIL. Its part of the charm, being able to say “I follow evil!”

    This is not the Warcraft Universe where evil doesn’t exist (And to be fair, if it was, Chaos would be the Burning Crusade, the EVIL guys)

    The wolf is not evil, but then the wolf does things for survival, not amusement, and rarely will they toy with a deer before killing it. The wolf would never mutate the rabbit so much that it loses all semblance of sanity and slaughter its burrow The Chaos Gods would survive without their machinations upon the universes. They do what they do for fun.

    See what i’m getting at here?

    Forget Moral relativism, forget philosophising on the terms of true good and true evil. Those are not subjective terms in the Warhammer Universe. There is good (Tau, Imperium, Eldar) There is evil (Chaos, Necrons, Tyranids, Orcs, Dark Eldar)

    Arguably orcs and tyranids are “Chaotic Neutral” because they fight for food (Tyranids) or because its in their very genetic make-up (Orcs) but those are the only two contestable ones in a universe of dark grimness and grim darkness.

  41. HeroofTime85 December 5, 2008 at 9:42 pm -      #41

    Ah, A four on one. Acceptable odds. The gods/goddesses on LoZ consider anything that disrupts peace evil. That is all that matters in this good/evil debate. Like I have said before Matapiojo, this is a battle, not a war. Neither combatant will permanently die. This would have to be a fight to see who drops without a deity interfering to revive them. Kharn and Link cannot permanently kill eachother no matter what. If this is the way of looking at this what points are there to prove? If this is the way to look at this, what fun is it to even come onto this site? There is no true victor in that type of fight so there is no point. I’m trying to show you that this will not end simply the way you want it to end. This is a battle, not a war. You also fail to take into effect the Fierce Deity. The Fierce Deity has killed countless, in other words, like Kharn, the Fierce Deity has constantly fought for milleniums on end. The Fierce Deity mask turns Link into a literal god. All his power and abilities with no drawbacks, plus all of the power of the gods/goddesses in Link. It is inevitable. Kharn doesn’t have the full power of Khorne. Khorne may have the most power in Warhammer 40k, but this isn’t Warhammer 40k is it? I congradulate you, Jwlynas, for actually taking facts into consideration and not just siding with the character you like better, and sorry if I accidentally offended you for not talking about you in being allies. I didn’t know if you were still reading this. Keep throwing more at me. I haven’t been challenged good enough. :mrgreen:

  42. L-W December 5, 2008 at 10:09 pm -      #42

    Yes, forget moral relativity when discussing the actions of non-mortal entities in the context of a fictional alternate universe. I’m certain we can project our own hard-lined and totally infallible moral pretext on something we cannot claim to ever understand.

    That makes sense. In a black and white world.

    On a side note, after reading the new Daemon Codex and the associated Warseer material; I see nothing indicating that the Chaos Gods take any personal pleasure from anything they do, it even blatantly states that within an environmental context they are merely projections of nearby emotional stimulus, feeding upon equal parts valour and malice and reacting to its input in the sense that a Wolf will respond differently to Humans in comparison to a domesticated Dog. It just so happens that the environmental conditions present in the 40K universe imbue war-like tendencies in the Gods themselves.

    But then again, when someone attributes lust or plotting negative emotions or attributes I tend to question where their stance on moral relativism lies.

    Although with the word Evil being thrown around so carelessly, I’m starting to question as to whether I’m in the presence of hard-lined Jeudo-Christian moralists. And that makes me nervous.

  43. Jwlynas December 6, 2008 at 8:51 am -      #43

    L-W Heh, I can see how that (The Jeudo-Christian moralists comment) would be a tad worrying. Fret not, Im quite the heathen in life.

    Lets put it into another context then, one less based on my own morals.

    The Master sword presumabley follows Links moral code, or has the same alignment, or however you’d prefer it described? What is evil to him is evil to the sword, or his morality is guided by the swords deity creator (I presume), whatever.
    Ganondorf for example could possibly be seen as a progressive, although aggressive, expansionist to his followers, rather than “That evil guy we work for”

    As such its links view we have to take into consideration here. And can we doubt Link would see Kharn as evil? Wears red, kills people alot, shouts and kills allies for funsies.

    HeroofTime85 – four on one, doesn’t seem right…I’m tempted to jump sides, but alas I know Naff all about Link and couldn’t live with myself if I turned against Khorne. He’s alreayd angry that I used a tzeentchian sorcerer in my last battle (never saw so many 1’s before..)

    Don’t worry about my earlier comments, was all in good fun. I’m not likely to leave a discussion about my favourite axe wielding maniac any time soon.

    look forward to agreements, rebuttals, new points and many more.

  44. =[BF]=JimmieRox December 6, 2008 at 10:55 am -      #44

    Aha, I believe in God, and you don’t, that makes you Evil, I curse you to burn forever in the fiery pits of Hell itself

    ps don’t forget to take some sausages with you, I’m sure you could get a good barbeque going!

    lol, takin th mick btw b4 any 1 goes on a rant =p

  45. L-W December 6, 2008 at 2:17 pm -      #45

    So the Master Sword doesn’t actually hold any moral convictions, it instead targets whomever the user determines is evil within their own intrinsic standards of morality without the alignment of the deity in question?

    That certainly strips away in any respect I’ve had for Link, who know only uses a weapon to target and specifically kill upon the grounds of his own set standardised idealism. Instead of appearing as a hero of righteousness, he simply comes across a Crusading Zealot with an appetite for ideological genocide.

    At least Chaos is still somewhat innocent in its behaviour, it is after only the simple mirror of the survivalist emotions of the intelligent beings in the real universe.

  46. HeroofTime85 December 6, 2008 at 5:41 pm -      #46

    The way that evil is looked upon would be determined by 1 of 2 things.
    1. The way that the gods/goddesses on LoZ look at evil
    2. The way that Link looks at evil
    Either way, it’s anything that disrupts peace :mrgreen:

  47. L-W December 6, 2008 at 7:35 pm -      #47

    Thus assuming that even if Kharn would somehow be viewed as evil within the context of their omnipotence, his Power Armour (Or even his bare skin) would still somehow would even be affected by any such attacks?

    …Right.

    I have to concede with one point though, the victor would certainly have to be decided within the context of a single fight, to which I believe Kharn has all the advantages necessary to defeat Link, whilst presenting no real disadvantages to the almost archaic methods of his opponent. Since Link cannot contest with his magic alone (Due to the almost imbalanced Universal inference of the Chaos Gods) therefore all contest would lay within the context of direct conflict.

  48. Jwlynas December 7, 2008 at 1:25 am -      #48

    For the master sword to hold moral convictions we have to presume that there is a definitve good and evil for it to base its opinions on . Either from the swords own viewpoint or the viewpoint of the wielder. In either case The Chaos gods are hardly able to be considered anything but vile evils to anything other than their own followers, and even then the opposing gods, while most likely not using the word “evil” persay would most certainly consider the destruction of their own followers by a rival god as a negative outcome (Actually, Khorne would revel in the bloodshed, Tzeentch would have planned it, Nurgle would have enjoyed the swift decay of power and Slannesh would probably enjoy it… perhaps not the best example)

    Ah L-W, I get the feeling your arguing for arguing sake. And for that I applaude you. But in a match up of Link Versus Kharn we have to assume Link is the protagonist, and Kharn the Antagonist. In which case seeing as Link is weilding the master sword we can presume him to be Good and Kharn, taking an opposed standpoint to link, as Evil. Even if not by personal moral beliefs then by standing against the eponimous hero.

    Such is life.

    The main question is, would the Master Sword be enough?

  49. Jwlynas December 7, 2008 at 3:31 am -      #49

    Well there is precedent for the Master swords effect on armour, being as I have yet to see link face an unclothes Ganondorf. He too often has armour, and while it would not hold a torch to the armour encasing Kharn it is still a layer of, at the very least, steel plate or the Link Universe equivalent and Swords are notoriously bad at slashing such armour types. Link is a fan of slashing over stabbing attacks and yet is still able to penetrate various types of armour, which shows that even his basic sword has penetration above and beyond that of basic weaponry.

    And I hardly think we can conclude that Kharns demonically possessed armour isn’t evil. After all, its possessed by a demon, another being composed of negative emotions that Link could easily see as evil.

    Link still loses, but I just can’t allow Kharn to win because of semantics.

  50. L-W December 7, 2008 at 12:21 pm -      #50

    If you are to accuse me of being argumentative, then I suggest you take such baseless accusations and you place them somewhere warranted. Now, are you actually going to argue this point with some dignity or do you continue to attend with this meaningless denunciation?

    Now whether or not we consider the Chaos Gods evil simply for disturbing the “peace” evil is another ball park that a lot of people here are neither willing nor unable to tread on; but I would appreciate if we would stop labelling the works of Carl Jung and M. Scott Peck as mere semantics. Until someone here can present an opposing and highly recognised thesis to contend that is.

    Now here are the issues with I’m hearing:

    1) Even if Link did oppose Kharn as an antagonist and therefore perceived him as evil, how would the deity-infused artefacts of Link cope with the overwhelming aura of Chaos that I believe that would either nullify or utterly reverse the enchanted properties of said artefacts.

    As I know, the Chaos Gods are potent entities capable of breaching the border worlds and tearing rifts between the universal constructs, hold dominion over millions of sentient bearing worlds and have billions (Possibly trillions) of disciples within the 40K universe alone. The Lords of Termina are precisely that, deities governing but a single miniscule speck within the realm of Chaos, whose strength beyond the disciples of Hyrule are conjecture at *best*. All evidence indicates that even if Link wanted to banish Kharn with an enchanted sword, Chaos would simply neutralise the artefacts in question.

    2) When I describe the occupants of Termina as being archaic, I only have to witness their constructs to validate this stance. Ganadorf himself is not tremendously well armoured, as on most occasions he only appears wearing incredibly thin layers of metallic armour (Given the metallurgy present in Termina, it would most likely represent a type of Oxidized Iron or Copper in terms of Moh hardness) covering only his shoulders, knees and very infrequently his chest. The rest of his body is covered in only a thin layer of leather (Apparent by his muscle contours) and the occasional cloth material or full body cape and tunic. The only impressive incarnation of Ganadorf is “twilight Princess” and even then it is still a basic affair with far too many plates and far too many moving parts, connected by the same leather like substance and STILL leaves the neck unprotected (Apparently he gets his kicks from putting his aortal arteries and Jugular on show).

    Of course the Master Sword would hurt him, he has less body armour than a turn of the century Spanish Conquistador. If were not for the Triforce piece he would have been killed by another equally intrepid yet poorly armed whelp some time beforehand armed with only a slingshot and a rock.

    I would even classify the power armour as being in the same spectrum, let alone the same millennia.

    3) Although whilst we’re arguing the capacity of the Gorechild, I really see no reason as to why we’ve not taken ranged weapon into consideration. Especially when Kharn has (Begrudgingly) used Plasma bolts to bring down foes in the past; and we all know that Link is not the most fire proof of guys.

    – – –

    Either way I can only foresee and ascertain a terrible end for Link after careful consideration on behalf of both combatants. Unlike most people here I tend to take a moment of quiet intrepitude and research before nominating a victor (Thus the extended duration before I provided input on this subject), I don’t go in on the basis of whom I prefer as a character; and any attempt to suggest so would indicate some unfamiliarity with my posting history.

    If I argue, it is because I know I’m right on the basis that I always back the winning Horse. And like most things in my life, I never go in half-cocked.

  51. HeroofTime85 December 7, 2008 at 1:45 pm -      #51

    I only see that everyone is repeating the same thing over and over. You are also trying to use that Kharn’s weapons and armor are futuristic, while hasn’t it been proved many times before that magic is superior to tech. The only true magic that Kharn even has are enchantments and a legendary weapon. Again I say, Kharn doesn’t have the full power of Khorne. Link has the full power of many gods. Kharne’s magic cancellation would be nullified by Link’s superior deity power and by Link’s superior magic ability alone. Then Link has just as much skill if not more than Kharn. Link has at least equal strength, and although slightly, superior speed. Link has unmatched willpower. Link is also very resourceful and unpredictable. Link caould easily don the magic cape, rendering Kharn unable to detect Link. :mrgreen:

  52. L-W December 7, 2008 at 4:32 pm -      #52

    Other than the fact that Gorechild is supposedly Daemonically infused (Even though Kharn admits on many occasions that he questions whether or not the Adamantium tipped axe were truly constructs of the Chaos Gods), his weapons and armour are still that of the Space Marine caste, only aesthetically marked to signify himself as a disciple of Chaos.

    But Power Armour will still always ranks higher than cloth and iron, unless the magic infused with them somehow increases the moh hardness of a non-synthetic fabric from 0 to 1000; now that would be impressive.

    Although I have to continue to question Links physical veracity. Saying he is strong, skilful or agile in context of Termina is correct, but comparing him to Kharn upon those traits is pure conjecture until you provide either verifiable evidence or a source that states specifically in what categories does he rank and how in comparison. Otherwise this is pure hyperbole.

    As an example, you could say the Titan Mitts gave him greater strength, but this strength was still only limited to lifting Boulders within the game (Which still took some effort to accomplish); and yet to use the four foot stature of Link as a comparison, these boulders would have weighed no more than 600Lbs at most even with the gloves at full magical potency. Unless they are of course magic boulders that somehow increase their mass and density using magic granite.

    The only thing that has ever come close to killing Kharn was the God Emperor during the Horus Heresy; and yet he still managed to crawl back to his ship with only half a face, the lower portion of his body missing and several dozen large blades rammed through his chest and a large rail sized slug embedded in one of his hearts. It obviously took some time recover, but he managed to bring his body back to its original strength and beyond.

    “Link caould easily don the magic cape, rendering Kharn unable to detect Link.”

    This would just leave him vulnerable to every other one of the many sensory modes in the full physical spectrum of the known universe available within the Power Armour Auspex generator.

    Unless you can present anything beyond pure conjecture at this point, I cannot really see any hope for the twenty something Elf defeating a ten thousand year old plus former Space Marine who has travelled the vast expanse of the cosmos.

    – – –

    End note: Even Khorne alone in a miniscule fraction of his total strength quite possibly outranks all the Lords of the Hyrule. Unless you can verify anything any different? If this is the case, even with only a slight commitment of Khorne, chaos would nullify triforce magic. The only thing that has even come close to suppressing Chaos in even the slightest has been the immortal spirit of the God Emperor.

  53. Matapiojo December 8, 2008 at 2:49 am -      #53

    Heh, this argument broadened fast in my abscense.

    @L-W

    I have tried to present a solid, if simple, argument to HeroofTime85 regarding the scope of the deities in question. So far, he seems grossly unphased by pure logic. As long as his oppinion stands in that respect, everything else argued here would be futile.

    I did bring Kharn’s Plasma Pistol into question. I think this weapon alone can obliterate Link. In truth, I’ve had a like oppinion to L-W’s in all aspects discussed from the start. That in turn made me see this fight as a joke initially.

    For the sake of argument, I allowed a few of Link’s attributes to “spill” into the 40k realm for him to really be considered by the Betrayeras an entity worth killing rather than a smudge of galactic “nothing”.

    I think we could safely consider the Master Sword to be a Power Weapon as viewed in 40K, and that the Mirror shield could grant a comparable 6+ Invulnerable Save at best (these are all tabletop terms and comparisons). The shield might also be able to reflect energy based attacks. Note that only energy attacks are reflected as such. The thought of this shield returning frag grenades or any other such projectile is simply ridiculous in a 40k context. This is one of those attributes that simply cannot be viewed outside of it’s intended world design.

    Those are the only items I would consider as being in the same playing field. I do not agree, one bit, on Link’s suggested physical attributes. Kharn still grosely surpasses the hero in everything considered; strength, speed, prowess, experience, ferocity, size, weight, etc. Meaning that even if possesing those legendary weapons, Kharn still outmatches him greatly.

    The only other item I have ever considered is the Fierce Deity mask. This MIGHT make Link a slightly closer opponent to match, but I still consider this to be beneath the Berzerker Lord. Contrary to HeroofTime85’s oppinion, I dont beleive this mask turns Link into the God itself, but rather be a vessel of sorts. This is comparable to 40K’s Daemonhosts. Beings who allow themselves to be possesed by Greater Daemons from the warp. Exponentially enhancing their attributes. Still, Kharn has defeated these beings in the past (as he has defeated Greater Daemons themselves).

    That is it. Those are the only aspects of Link I beleive compare to anything 40K. Still doesnt bring him closer to defeating Khone’s champion, but they are good points for open argument.

  54. HeroofTime85 December 8, 2008 at 12:51 pm -      #54

    This is just getting funnier by the minute. Oh yeah btw Matapiojo, thanks for staying with this post :grin: Let’s take this one section at a time. You see this “cloth” is not just cloth it automatically fractions off sections of damage that Link takes. Basically, if Gorechild did one heart of damage, the 1st upgrade from a Link to the past alone will reduce it to 1/2 of a heart of damage. I know you might hate how I’m bringing this factor up, but it’s simple division from here. Such as the second upgrade on a Link to the Past, it reduces the reduced damage to 1/4 of a heart of damage. This is the effect of just two of many different upgrades to Link’s defense. You bring up the stat issue. There is no website that’ll say anything about the stats of composite Link (that is the name given to Link when he has all items and skills. This is something that simple equations are neccesary to understand. I could use that same arguement on my side. There is not going to be an actual site that has comparison from the makers of these series because the creators made these, so only they know for a fact the total extents of the strength, speed, etc. Until then, we will not be able to prove MOST stats. What goes for defense, also goes for strength. Link never gets rid off of any items, so it must use the multiplying effect. The rocks that the Titan’s Mitt allow you to pick up on a Link to the Past are the same size on screen, but they actually do have properties that severely increase their weight. That boulder that you say is 600 pounds is both heavier than that and the darker boulders weigh much, much, much more than the boulders you mentioned. Plus with the power bracelet from Four Swords alone, Link can rip a tree and its roots out of the ground that most characters with extremely high superhuman strength can’t break through. The Magic Cape (although this factor doesn’t truly matter) renders Link completely undetectable and intangible. This gives no weakness to Link. The gods on LoZ easily outmatch Khorne and all deities on Warhammer 40k, and I really want to see proof that they don’t. With that we have both made a statement that noone but the creators can prove. Now onto what Matapiojo said. I have also given solid arguements about the deities, yet you are acting unphased. If you won’t give in to an arguement that at the moment is unable to be proven, then don’t expect your opponent to give in on something you can’t prove. You see, the Mirror Shield is not some cheap item you can buy on the market. It is an unbreakable item that can protect from anything. This is not a RPG. It is able to deflect projectiles, not all. The reason I said it was possible to deflect a grenade is because of the shield attack on Twilight Princess. Link uses a regular shield on that game, yet it is able to deflect projectiles that come towards you in the way that a grenade comes at you, plus there are some projectiles that the Mirror Shield on a Link to the Past deflects. There is nothing that says that the effects would not work due to other people not understanding. This isn’t Warhammer 40k context. I disagree that Kharn would outmatch Link in these areas, neither of us can have actual proof on that factor. Kharn is not superior to the Fierce Deity. Link turns into the actual deity, because the Fierce Deity’s whole power and existence was put into the Fierce Deity mask like Darmani and Mikau. Kharn still doesn’t have what it takes. :mrgreen:

  55. L-W December 8, 2008 at 5:57 pm -      #55

    First off: Paragraphs, learn how to use them and when to use them. I enjoy reading but THAT is just ridiculous, no one enjoys looking at what is essentially one giant unstructured paragraph.

    But you can provide your own stats based upon evidence gathered from the games themselves, basic calculation and observation are the cornerstones to scientific study. You are either incapable or unwilling to do them despite how easy they really are when you just apply yourself or use your brain.

    Strength:

    Given Links height, physical stature and based upon calculations given to me by the US Geological society, the boulders within the game would weigh no more than 600lbs; and their colour would suggest the presence of igneous matter which is no heavier than porous rock.

    Also, if we take into account his ability to tear trees from the roots, Link would only have to apply around 400Kg or force to tear it clear from the roots (Judging from records given to me by the US ecological society, boy do I love the net); which is only six times the Human bite pressure. Impressive by the standards of a four foot Elf admittedly…

    But in the case of Kharn, who towers over the four foot Link at a staggering twelve feet (By know he is most likely around fourteen to fifteen foot tall), this pales in comparison. Your average Space Marine is capable of lifting a 70 tonne Imperial Tank, Kharn being not only an advanced veteran but also a Berserker could more than easily lift larger vehicles; bringing his strength to about 100 tonnes.

    One hundred times the total possible strength of Link in any form, even as the Fierce Deity. If we were to take into account his ability to uproot trees as the total maximum capacity of his strength, this would make Kharn two hundred times the strength of Link.

    Speed:

    Generally Link is either limited to a gentle amble or riding a Horse although certain conditions or items do arise in game that affect his speed. So I loaded up several of my Zelda games, equipped a pair of Pegasus boots and using the basic speed calculation imbued upon us by the great physicists of the past I could determine how fast Zelda is.

    First I compared Link to the background, using his height as a means of developing a scale ratio with the environment so I could determine an ample measureable distance. Equipping the Pegasus Boots, I timed the period in which Link could traverse ten, twenty and fifty metres of flat ground whilst sprinting; which allowed me to gauge that Link actually runs at an average speed of 40Km/h (With a possible margin of error of 5m/h favouring less than 40Km/h). This is certainly impressive by Human standards no doubt.

    Yet a bog standard Space Marine is known be capable of running alongside an Imperial Guard Scout Bike for extended periods far longer than Link can maintain a sprint, clocking in at well over 100km/h easily. Once again by adding the additional benefits of being a Berserker and an advanced Veteran, we can only assume that Kharn is far faster than your average Space Marine.

    Durability:

    This one is simple. Link may indicate his durability through the use of Hearts, but he still sustains physical damage from basic attacks conjured by his enemies. Even with his magical armour equipped (That reduces his damage to conventional damage) it only takes several strikes from a Bat to kill Link.

    A Bat. Comparatively a one ton Axe is going to do far, far more damage than a small, fragile mammal.

    Meanwhile we’ve seen Kharn lose entire body parts, part of his head has been torn away, he has been bisected, impaled, shot in the face multiple times with explosive rounds, set alight and attacked by the God Emperor with an incredibly potent psyker attack that would cause the minds of lesser mortals to literally explode. And he has yet to actually die from any of this.

    Experience:

    Link has engaged within thirteen missions over his relatively short lifespan, fighting the same guy almost every time. Although impressive for a twenty something Elf, it still once again pales in comparison to Kharn.

    A 10,000 year old Chaos Marine who has never rested for a single day of his life, the only thing that ever slowed him down was when he had the lower half of his body removed; and even that was only a minor “hiccup” in the total overall sum of war he has faced in his constant traversing of the Galaxy. Born as a Space Marine, he spent the first few centuries of his life training just to become a Marine, the other few centuries before becoming Chaos were then spent fighting for the Imperium of Man in its continuous expansion throughout the Galaxy against alien terrors such as the Ork hoards (One of which would eat Ganadorf for breakfast).

    They barely compare.

    Physiological stature:

    Link, being only four foot tall, weighs in only at around 19Kgs in the least. Other than magically imbued armour he possesses no unique physical traits other than being a Humanoid sub-species.

    Kharn, who is possibly at this point fourteen foot in height, weighs in at over two to three tonnes, making him incredibly difficult to knock off his feet. Aside from twenty additional organs, a reinforced nervous system and an augmented skeletal structure infused with a reinforced jacket and several added layers of alloy ‘bones': his skin is layered with an alloy that makes it extremely difficult to penetrate the skin of even the average Space Marine.

    – – –

    See, you provide the conjecture; I provide solid research and evidence. And thus the wheel continues to turn.

  56. Matapiojo December 8, 2008 at 6:22 pm -      #56

    “See, you provide the conjecture; I provide solid research and evidence. And thus the wheel continues to turn.”

    Most accurate description of this match’s argument. Very weird, seeing as one side has many more wheels that the other…

  57. HeroofTime85 December 9, 2008 at 1:08 am -      #57

    How much do you suck at LoZ? If a Keese can kill you, that is pretty d*mn bad. Without upgrades Keese do the damage of 1/4 of a heart.

    Strength
    Here’s your paragraphs. You obviously have not played a Link to the Past if you do not know what I mean by the darker rocks. The darker rocks are weighted down far more than the ones you know about. In the LoZ universe, when it comes to weight, size somehow seems not to matter. A rock the size of a regular rock (not the big ones) is darker, therefore it weighs far more than a huge rock. You are only truly taking into account two of the multiple strength upgrades. This factor has little importance, but it is still there. There are far too many strength upgrades that multiply his strength by X.

    Speed
    I could be wrong, but it sounds like you were playing the Legend of Zelda: The Minish Cap cuz I doubt you have the older ones like Link’s Awakening, but it is possible that you were playing a Link to the Past on the Gameboy Advance, but you have unlocked very little in the game if you do not understand the rocks. The world in the 2-D games also seems not to be to scale (Look closely at some of these things on the games). You are taking into account the Pegasus Boots alone, while I am taking into acc all the speed upgrades on the series.

    Durability
    Again I say (no offense cuz we all got some we ain’t good at, like stealth-based games for me) you must suck at LoZ. W/o upgrades, a Keese will only do 1/4 of a heart to Link. I’m saying that normally, Gorechild might do up to 1 hearts damage, because when you’re hit by Ganondorf and he’s also using a legendary weapon, it does about a hearts worth of damage w/o upgrades. After everything that Link has been through, even from being hit by Iron Knuckle’s axe which he effortlessly swings and annihalates a column by accident in his own throne room, his bones never weaken and he never bleeds, even after being hit by a gods full power.

    Experience
    Link has been in over 13 missions. The Fierce Deity only fought for countless years. The LoZ games still go on, and are being made, he has traveled to different universes (and somehow was supposed to be on Marvel Ultimate Alliance. That I do not understand what so ever, but then again, that part was on the Wikipedia and I never take the Wikipedia seriously. Link has fought countless being with the power of gods. Kharn is just another one on the list. As to my understanding, Kharn has not fought any because the Space Marines are nothing to that kind of power. Kharn has fought more enemies than the standard Link has, but since he’s got at least part of the power of Khorne, the Space Marines are left in the dust, thus giving Kharne little to no experience, so that 10,000 years of experience, wasn’t really experience because he has fought nothing that has scale in his power. Link has fought the equivalent of many gods countless times, and it’s going to happen again (Nintendo is already working on another LoZ).

    Physiological Stature

    I am tired of people calling Link short just because he has pointy ears. The Fierce Deity is at least 8 ft tall (this is on the internet) and regular Link is 1 to 1 1/2 feet shorter than the Fierce Deity. Being just 14 of course, I dream of being that tall. That gets on my nerves when people make fun of their idea of Link’s height when I know he is clearly taller than them. Either way, bigger isn’t always better. Also, when it comes to size, Link can don the Giant’s Mask easily towering over Kharn.

    You have failed to actually calculate these statistics. I have. I don’t have exact numbers because Nintendo needs to give exact numbers to avoid confusions. You are also ignoring the intelligence factor, which, showed in the first fight between Murtagh and Eragon on Eldest, can decide a whole fight. Eragon had far greater strength and speed over Murtagh, yet Murtagh effortlessly annihalated Eragon. You believe you are accurate with LoZ, but you are barely scratching the surface. Kharn has the popularity factor and the popularity factor alone. :mrgreen:

  58. Matapiojo December 9, 2008 at 5:02 am -      #58

    “Kharn has the popularity factor and the popularity factor alone.”

    One – No. He does NOT have popularity alone. We have proven countless times that his attributes are superior.

    Two – Link is far more popular than Kharn. More than half the people in this site dont even know of the Betrayer, but absolutely everyone knows Link.

    You keep bringing up an argument that not only does it not make sense to me, we see that games also dispute it. Time and again you state that the effects of all the items gathered throughout the games are cumulative. You even said that they multiply exponentially. Pure conjecture. I have not seen this instance in any game.

    Ignoring the fact that Link NEVER has all the items throughout the games, I will take into consideration the example given by the LoZ: Ocarina of Time (again). In this incarnation of Link, we see that he gains possession of the Silver Gauntlets. These allow him to move certain boulders. At a later point in the game, he comes across the Golden Gauntlets. These allow him to lift and even hurl larger objects.

    By your estimation, the combination of these two gauntlets he should be crushing entire building structures with his bare hands. However, what we see is that a better quality item OVERLAYS the effects of the weaker. With this proven example, I believe that Link’s strength could never even come close to matching Kharn’s no matter what enhancing item he possesses.

    Which brings me to another point. There are only a handful of items that have transcended into different game incarnations, yet you seem to continuously make the argument that Link has them all. This is not stated in the scenario. Since the scenario does not say otherwise either, I have not pushed that point. However, there comes a few times where your argument takes the easy way out of saying “well Link can just use this”.

    Pretty preposterous at times. If Link is wearing the Fierce Deity Mask (the ONE thing I believe might put him around the same league as Kharn), he couldnt possibly don a second mask to gain the upper hand.

    It is interesting that you keep making points on Link’s favor with examples within the game. Allow me to do the same in kind. Has Link ever cut or crushed a building with his weapons or bare hands?

    I’m not one to fall into game mechanics to explain my point, I rather do actual comparisons, but I guess that it is acceptable in this case to match some of your far fetched concepts. I ask you this because Kharn’s armour is compared to a fortified building in tabletop game mechanics.

    Kharn’s armour grants him a saving roll with a result of 3 or better in six sided die. That means that on a result of 3, 4, 5, or 6 his armour brushes off the attack as if it was nothing. The 5th volume of the core rulebook for the tabletop game states that units within cover of a FORTIFICATION have the same armour value. If you werent able to put 1 and one together, Kharn is in all essence a walking bunker. Link has not demonstrated the sort of strength that can pierce a building in any of the games i have played (and Ive played most of them save for the latest 3).

    Now that the armour’s strength has been establish, lets move on to Gorechild. All basic Space Marines have the same armour value of 3. Gorechild rips apart this armour with no difficulty at all. A hot-knife-through-butter metaphor would be completely accurate.

    Lets take this in-game comparison even further. Keep in mind that these are game terms, the have been considerably “toned down” for the game to actually be playable.

    Models gain a cover save from bunkers that matches Kharn’s own protection, but the structure of the bunker itself is stronger. In game terms, bunkers have an armor value of 14. This means that an attack must have a strength value of at least 14 to glance the structure or 15 or better to pierce it.

    The average Joe in 40k game terms has a strength value of 1 or 2 at the very best. Particularly strong combatants have a strength value of 3. Space Marines, whom we have established can lift several tons, have a value of 4. Kharn, whom is far stronger than most Space Marines and is able to rip men appart with his bare hands without much trouble, has a value of 5. This strength is hardly enough to destroy a fortification.

    Gorechild grants Kharn TWO additional dice rolls to his strength value. This means that with a particularly auspicious swing of this daemon weapon, the Betrayer could have a strength value of 17. More than enough strength to rip that fortified bunker apart and butcher any coward hiding inside from his fury.

    These are all game terms. The have been considerably toned-down from known canon. Meaning Kharn is even stronger than those game mechanics could hope to reflect. While Link’s swings clang harmlessly against pillars and boulders, Kharn is tearing apart fortifications designed for war of galactic proportions.

    I am sure that many more will agree with me that Kharn’s swings would do much more damage that “1/4 of a heart” after upgrades. One swing would still make Hyrulean sashimi.

    THAT is the power of Gorechild. Leagues ahead of any equipment Link has ever had. I was gracious enough to allow you the courtesy of Link’s Master Sword and Mirror Shield to be able to at least protect your hero from this most infamous chainaxe, but in truth, I don’t think they stand a chance. In my opinion, Kharn would chop both Link and Ganondorf with a single swing along with that column of yours.

  59. Sho'saJon December 9, 2008 at 5:30 am -      #59

    HeroofTime, you said L-W sucks at LoZ if a keeze could kill him? He was just making an example since even a five year old can play LoZ and win. As to your experience argument, I didn’t really understand what you meant.

    The armies of chaos are not unified in any way other than their hatred of the Imperium. This means they fight among themselves all the time. Therefore, Kharn has fought numerous chaos champions with power similar to his own.

    Also, the whole god power argument? Kharn is the Patron Saint of Khorne, possibly the most powerful dark god in any of the gaming universes.
    All of this doesn’t even include the fact that none of Link’s weapons could harm Kharn with his armor off, much less on.

    I’ve been a LoZ fan since childhood, but I also play Warhammer and I know what each character is capable of respectively. Frankly, Kharn is the type of opponent that Link couldn’t imagine in his darkest nightmare.

  60. HeroofTime85 December 9, 2008 at 12:35 pm -      #60

    You say that you have proven attribute superiority. You haven’t. You are also trying to do the arguement of not having stuff in the lives. I was wondering when you would bring that up. This is composite Link. It does not matter how much you hate it. Composite Link has all stuff from all games. Get a question from admin if you don’t believe me.

    Strength

    Here we go with you trying to shoot down what I said. I was waiting to use this. On a Link to the Past, have you noticed that the name of the Titan’s Mitt is singular and not plural. It multiplies the strength. Same with the Gauntlets and everything else. Also Link doesn’t leave the previous items behind. This is telling us that he still puts them to use. Link is not evil. He never would cut or crush a building. He does these quests and such to protect others, not destroy their property.

    Masks

    1. I never said he would put a mask on top of the Fierce Deity mask 2. He wouldn’t need to

    Weapons

    First I do not play those type of RPGs so I am ignorant of what you said about the rolls and the rest of that stuff. Second, I have also been generous about what I have been saying. The Master Sword would tear right through Kharn’s armor like a hot knife cutting through butter. Third thing I have also been generous about the light arrows. When you shoot at the strongest enemies on the games, the arrow bounces of yea, but the effect of the Light Arrow is like the Auger on Resistance 1and 2 in the fact still goes through the armor, leaving the wearer defenseless and instantly killing them. The Master Sword would also neutralize the effect of Kharn’s armor. About Iron Knuckle, since you fail to understand LoZ like I do, I used him as an example that you might be able to relate to to show that Link has never as much as spilled a drop of his blood. Link could shield attack Kharn, forcing him to catch his balance, then use helm splitter exposing another easy weakpoint for Link to effortlessly exploit. Sorry, but the Master Sword would cut Kharn down before the match could start. I can’t believe that when I make a joke on here, people take it seriously, but then again noone can hear the tone of voice I’m using. Khorne is a powerful dark god on Warhammer 40k, he might even start to rival the Fierce Deity’s power, but most of the gods on LoZ are good. Khorne is not as powerful. Plus that was a good idea, Sho’saJon, Kharn underestimates Link and allows him to get a free shot. Link stabs his brains out, cuts Kharn in half, and uses this moment to turn Kharn into a jellysack. :mrgreen: I’m going to take a break for a couple days. I hoping for something that actually interests me when I come back. :mrgreen:
    /\
    / \
    / \
    / \
    _________
    /\ /\
    / \ / \
    / \ / \
    / \ / \
    __________________

  61. L-W December 9, 2008 at 2:48 pm -      #61

    “You’re wrong because my opinion invalidates what you say” – Herooftime

    “Do you have any evidence to back that up?” – Me

    “There is no evidence” – Herooftime

    “Actually, here is point A, B, C and D based upon accumulated analysis and obersvations on the games” – Me

    “That’s not true because it devalues my opinion” – Herooftime

    “Do you have anything then to prove it wrong?” – Me

    “No, but I can continue to use abject slander and conjecture to make my opinion seem more validated” – Herooftime

    “Good for you” – Me

    – – –

    Even if magical item A and B were to somehow multiply his strength, considering he can only equip one of the item at the time (Otherwise his Pegasus and Iron Boots would have one hell of a time cooperating) and no game stipulates that any of his items actually accumulate in strength when used in combination or even kept in the same Satchel (The magical one that carries every one of his items in existence) over a prolonged period, any further statement of such is pure supposition on your behalf.

    The issue of speed was actually played out over the multiple Zelda games within my ownership (Although my name isn’t within conjunction to the Hero of Time I am actually a Nintendo and Zelda fan – my appreciation is just slightly more subtle), anything from the various seed satchels in the Gameboy releases, Ocarina, Twilight, Four swords (Add verite) and even the animal mutations and Horse riding segments. I came to the conclusion from multiple instances over the course of several games to conclude that even if he were to use his higher end speed upgrades he would not be going any faster than the Pegasus Boots could allow him. Even with the attributes of the Goron mutation servo he is still only going a fraction of the speed Kharn can achieve.

    The only problem with saying that Link never bleeds is that each game in the series is and always has been catered towards younger demographics; in fact the highest rating available throughout the series was less than PG-13 for the decidedly darker Twilight Princess. Saying Link doesn’t suffer grievous and horrific injuries from being attacked is the equivalent of saying Tom and Jerry are invincible because you never see Tom suffer serious brain injuries from having an anvil dropped on his head, or haemorrhaging and multiple massive organ failure from being run over by a truck. For that same reason we cannot see Link with missing limbs and broken bones, but we still know he is incredibly vulnerable to conventional attacks regardless of the injuries he displays.

    The fact that Link is capable of dying even from a few strikes from an Ache or a Keese (Saying I suck at the games, nice of you to totally overlook the context of the post and demonstrate a total lack of dignity) dictates that even though it still requires a sustained series of blows, it only take comparatively few strikes from a relatively powerless mammalian creature to kill Link and send him on his way.

    As I’ve proven before, Kharn can take far more punishment from far more powerful entities, being struck by a legendary weapon would be a tickle compare to the Chaos inferno conversion he underwent to become Khornes servant.

    As a Marine he fought the Orks (Far stronger enemies than those present anything in the Zelda series), the Eldar and the Necron skirmishes. During the Chaos rift he battled Chaos Marines and Lords when entire regiments were being devoured by the Chaos forces; defeating everything from miniature Daemons no larger than himself to world devouring Titans. Upon falling into Chaos, he immediately began by killing legions of Chaos Marines and ended the Daemon Lord hierarchy by destroying their upper echelons (Thus earning him the moniker of Betrayer).

    Now he just fights everything. Chaos Champions, the Imperium, Daemons, Orks, Necrons, Tau and even single handily destroyed a Hive Fleet of scale that took the full force of an Ultramarine regiment to expunge after devastating losses. 10,000 years may seem a long time to sit around and do nothing, but when you have no qualms about who and what you fight and deliberately travel through space and time to pick fights it all adds up to a very exciting and blood-soaked ten millennia.

    Actually height adds up to a lot in physical combat and only ever serves a detriment if the taller individual is either unskilled in combat, lacks the muscle mass to support his taller frame, is slow or has a weak point open to exposure from a poor defensive posture. None of which could be said for Kharn in any sense. In fact height gives him the advantage of range, determining how close Link can get to use his weaponry. Also his speed and reflexes allow him to use a devastating combination of speed and mass to accelerate his attacks to a degree that Ganadorf could not compare. Height wouldn’t matter against untrained and sluggish opponents, but in Kharn these weaknesses are nullified.

    As for the Giant Mask, you mean the Giant Mask that can only ever be used in the Twinmold arena and loses its properties once taken outside? The one that doesn’t actually cause Link to grow, but instead unlocks the magic of the Stone Tower Temple and instead shrinks the arena, rather than enlarging Link? You mean THAT Mask. Okee-dokee.

    – – –

    Ugh, Eldest. You read that garbage? Why would anyone do that to themselves unless they were masochists?

    Either way don’t get the impression that Space Marines are hulking masses of muscle and brawn minus the brain. In fact, to even enlist or to be born within the Marines an individual must display a genius level intellect as a pre-requisite for even being selected for training. This intellect is continually tested over the course of a century of military training and education that not only instils the Marine with several thousand years worth of tactical knowledge and strategic analysis, but educates them in everything from theoretical physics, medical engineering, advanced mathematics to even dancing lessons to improve their agility and flexibility within their Carapace. Admittedly teaching a one tonne Marine to dance seems somewhat humorous at first, but most of the great warriors of all time were versed in some form of dancing to improve their agility and coordination.

    Imagine spending every day your entire possible lifetime (Which for us would average at about 70 years) learning the fundamentals of quantum mechanics, calculation of exact black body angular radiation, justifying the grand unification theory, memorising the exact genome sequence, knowing how and where to re-configure the synaptic nerve endings of the brain to avoid Spinal stenosis in a patient and then spending the rest of the day fighting other potential Space Marines in unarmed and armed combat in gruelling matches that push you to the limits of the training and discipline given to you by your Veteran Marine instructors.

    Picture doing this every day for a hundred years, with an extremely dedicated drop-out rate that dictates 95% of students will fail to even survive. That’s the Marine academy for you. You don’t become a surviving Space Marine without some tenacity and forthright genius intelligence; and you don’t become a higher graduate like Kharn without being insanely gifted.

    This is before the augmentations and artificial synaptic relay that sink the brain of a Marine to an extremely advanced AI construct known as a “Ghost”, that transforms the Marine from a intellectual genius to a walking universal archive continuously learning and gathering data from every available source in the immediate environment.

    Kharn is no different from this, which when coupled with the fact that he delved into the rift…

    (…The Chaos Gods had a habit of sifting through sentient thought for emotion which they desired to use in their growth, but would leave the information aside in a literal rift of knowledge where all the thoughts and data they gathered would be left…)

    …to peer at the accumulated thoughts and knowledge of the universe to which he later absorbed; and his ability to pilfer the knowledge of any host whose blood he spills combines to Kharn being no idiot. If we were to contest them on the basis of intelligence, Link could not compare who has so far only portrayed his ineptitude alone.

    – – –

    Actually I didn’t take statistic into account as you said, I took observation and evidence into account to avoid your incessant conjecture and from a basis for a strong argument.

    You on the other hand fail at semantics.

    Statistics dictate objective fact, which cannot be wronged if proven in the correct context of verifiable evidence. By using an analytical standpoint I surmised an evidential comparison at which both opponents could possibly compare. For which you have nothing to disprove me other than pure conjecture on your behalf.

    But you tried. And that’s the important thing. Also you’ve started using actual paragraphs, that’s very good.

  62. Matapiojo December 9, 2008 at 5:19 pm -      #62

    @HeroofTime85

    “Durability
    Again I say (no offense cuz we all got some we ain’t good at, like stealth-based games for me) you must suck at LoZ. W/o upgrades, a Keese will only do 1/4 of a heart to Link. I’m saying that normally, Gorechild might do up to 1 hearts damage, because when you’re hit by Ganondorf and he’s also using a legendary weapon, it does about a hearts worth of damage w/o upgrades. After everything that Link has been through, even from being hit by Iron Knuckle’s axe which he effortlessly swings and annihalates a column by accident in his own throne room, his bones never weaken and he never bleeds, even after being hit by a gods full power.”

    I was not stating the tabletop game terms to awe and confuse you. I did this because you seem focused on comparing Kharn to things Link has defeated in the games where he is staged to be a protagonist, rather than with Kharn himself. Of course Link comes out on top of those encounters, the story is driven by that.

    I started making in-game 40k comparisons so that you would be better apt to put things in perspective. I think I was pretty clear in the simple maths. They were very “1+1=2″-ish. I apologize if I confused you. This is the simple term of that whole argument I made. Link will be in the same league in terms of strength as Kharn when he can cut a fortified bunker equivalent in his games.

    You have a very nifty way of going round and round on the same points that have already been shot down by multiple individuals analyzing the fight with pure logic and educated opinions. I suppose your attitude towards the argument would be O.K. if the likes of L-W, Jwlynas, AlphaCommando, and myself would be simply making statements along the lines of “Link sucks, and Kharn is best”. None of us have taken this standpoint.

    I suppose this matter is closed because I guarantee that the only thing we will get upon your return is “You say Kharn does this, but he can’t cause Link does this in the game which is better”. So that’s all folks. I do hope for more Link support, but I doubt you’ll present anything else that is enlightening.

    “I’m going to take a break for a couple days. I hoping for something that actually interests me when I come back.”

    I guess we can all wait in anticipation….

  63. L-W December 9, 2008 at 7:17 pm -      #63

    Apparently Herooftime has no idea what durability actually means. It does not denote to the individual skill of the player and their ability to kill opponents before sustaining damage, it means how much damage their physical bodies can take before succumbing to fatal wounds. A simple Bat is easy to kill, but we’re not discussing how fast Link can evade his opponent or how quickly a Bat can be dispatched. We’re stating how many strikes Link can sustain (Not how many he can evade) before he dies.

    Links physical durability is limited to only a few conventional attacks (Strikes, mauling, slashes, arrow fire, burns etc.) before the injuries prove to be fatal, in lieu of this, Kharns’ physiological durability is far higher, sustaining injuries that would kill Link yet leave Kharn with much less than a scratch.

    – – –

    Notice how he continues to fail to provide any evidence or rationale for his statements:

    “The Master Sword would tear right through Kharns’ armour like a hot knife cutting through butter.”

    How? Kharns armour is capable of fracturing the adamantium teeth of an energised sword upon contact, even a direct point blank shot from a Bane Blade Tank failed to even dent or place a crack upon his armour. His power armour has allowed him to survive falling from a Star Ship hangar bay into the atmosphere of a Planet, withstand several blasts from the Imperial AA planetary defence weaponry and survive crashing into the side of a Mountain all within the space of several minutes.

    Tell me how a Sword that clangs harmlessly off granite would even scratch it? So far his only weakness have been the Psychic attacks of the God Emperor, the Warp Magic, the Inviolable Aura and the Tau ancient light magic (The “Good” or light side magic behind the 40K universe); and he’s now impervious to all but the Golden Throne of the God Emperor after the sheer of amount of “blood” he’s literally absorbed from his enemies.

    “Third thing I have also been generous about the light arrows.”

    Lesser mortals may die from the internal injuries caused by arrow penetration, especially when armour is as weak as it is in the Zelda universe, with very few opponents actually using thick plate armour in strategic places; except for Ganadorf who is only susceptible when exposed to the Master Sword.

    Even then he only loses when he falls on his own sword.

    But Kharn is above the average. Even if a Light Arrow could magically penetrate the Power Armour, several dozen layers of Carapace defences and not shatter upon contact with his skin (Even though inertia clearly exists in Termina as the ordinance bounces off rocks); his would immediately heal over, his immune system would literally devour the Arrow and reuse whatever soluble material it can in aid of strengthening the overall body.

    “I can’t believe that when I make a joke on here, people take it seriously, but then again noone can hear the tone of voice I’m using.”

    Take you seriously? Where did you get that impression? You have to provide valuable input and insight before people even begin to take you seriously or consider an opinion valid. Providing evidence would certainly help, but so far the majority of your posts have been:

    “Link is stronger because I say so, he has power mitts, how strong do they make him? How do I know? But they make him STRONGER THAN KHARN!”

    I occasionally glimpse what could potentially be a valid point or even something worthy of discussion, but you seem to possess a classical trait of ruining it with an almost childlike tendency to immediate degrade the preceding content and repeat points that have been disproven long before.

  64. That one dude December 11, 2008 at 2:43 pm -      #64

    I think we found a huge zelda fanboy who can’t accept a loss…According to all the info i read kharn will pretty much wipe the floor with Link.

    A 10,000 year old Chaos Marine who has never rested for a single day of his life killing pretty much whatever he feels like…

    V.S.

    A small elven dude thats been on like 13 missions…

    In other words its like going on the hardest difficulty on a video game times 1000
    And don’t say im just a Kharn fanboy i barely know anything about him…

  65. Space marine December 15, 2008 at 12:58 pm -      #65

    God-d#mmit my two fav characters dont make me decide!!!

  66. Matapiojo December 15, 2008 at 6:37 pm -      #66

    Well this is not a site that reflects well on indecision.

  67. HeroofTime85 December 15, 2008 at 8:35 pm -      #67

    Sorry bout the wait. What was supposed to be a couple of days lengthened due to being grounded.

    About what your saying with the combination of items L-W, you are saying that there has been nothing to prove these items increase the effect of others. These games are not together, so you do not see the effects of more than 2 items at one time. Common sense is where I first realized this. Link never gets rid of any item he gets. By not doing this, these items would seem to be dead weight. Link is never shown taking these items off either. This is what tells anyone that these items multiply the others’ effects. The Golden Gauntlets alone would be about the strength of the Silver Gauntlets. I should’ve brought this up earlier, because I now realize that this is not something that you wait for the right time to add. Sorry for my mistake. I still believe that they would at least equal out in the strength factor. Like I said, strength would not be the deciding factor anyways, therefore I do not care. For speed, it is the same basic thing.

    Link has never broken even a leg, no matter what hits him. The games do show blood. For instance, at the end of Ocarina of Time, when you beat Ganon, Link starts to slash at Ganon and you see green blood come into the air. For Tom and Jerry (I know it’s off subject and I can’t believe I’m going into this) Tom does die at one point. I don’t know if you’ve seen it, but on the Two Mouseketeers, when Tom fails to protect the food, he goes to the guillotine (might have misspelled). You don’t see it happen, but you see the guillotine blade come down. The only reason a Keese would be able to kill you on an LoZ game is if you don’t realize it’s coming, and you have just 3 hearts. I meant no offense by the comment about you playing. That was the joke I was talking about. Me and my friends say that stuff all the time to eachother. For that I am sorry.

    About height, I may be wrong, but I don’t think I ever said Kharn was weak due to height. As for the Giant’s Mask. The arena was never specified, so that is why I even mentioned it. It increases Link’s size and I’ve realized this because of two things. One, if it decreased the size of the temple, then it makes no sense of why Twinmold’s size would change. If it effected the size of the Temple, than all lifeforms would change. Two, Link’s voice wouldn’t change if that was true. It goes from a kid’s voice to a giant’s voice. Even if what you say is true, Kharn would also shrink. What you said would actually help my side of the arguement when I think about it. I will come back to it later if you choose to push on.

    Like I said earlier, I didn’t mean to offend you. I see that you are mad, but that don’t change my viewpoint that the Inheritance trilogy are extremely good books. No book has kept my interest as far as that has.

    I never thought that Space Marines are stupid, don’t get me wrong. This, however, is like a Halo fanboy’s arguement about MC being a genius, but this is a different genius than what is needed in this type of fight. Also keep in mind that they are trained against enemies that usually don’t differ. Link is used to fighting enemies that are never the same (not counting minor soldiers). One thing that causes Eragon’s defeat is that he is ignorant of his enemies abilities. Eragon had all attributes severely stronger, yet he lacked the knowledge and adaptation that Murtagh had, therefore he lost. Link has proven to be greater than genius in all categories.

    What you had with Link’s stats is guesses. I have had a benchmark (although small) that has helped me understand the actual weight of these things. Kharne has had no true proof of his actual strength either, just what you said. I do ask that you do not truly insult me and the things that I like. I understand when things are jokes, but it’s hard to tell if they are. There are many times I put it in parentheses (might’ve misspelled it, Spanish has seriously affected my spelling).

    I agree that either way, it’s a close fight. You guys seem to also be going round and round with arguements about Kharne. I have seen countless times about strength, 10,000 years of fighting, etc. I know that you’ve seen these things a lot too. I’ve been giving just enough information at a time to neutralize an arguement. I try to put a bit more each time to keep from getting bored. (This alone is where I’m realizing myself about how my personality is kinda close to Kenpachi Zaraki).

    I never said that any game is better than the other and you are taking it that way. At first, I second guessed myself on everything due to knowing that I’m human and I make mistakes often. I usually was a fan of things that my friends would either underestimate or didn’t like, so it was put down. I now realize that with each arguement, I’m realizing what I say more and realizing that just because Link is the character for the games that are meantto allow less mature audiences to play, that doesn’t mean he’s weak. I’m beginning to understand more and more, and I’m taking the powers into consideration. I realize that Link’s power could neutralize Kharn’s own. After this, the slightest nudge could decide the fight. Due to what Link has in his arsenal, I say Link has this very slight nudge. Kharn adapts very easily as well, but Link has adapted to every type of enemy to exist.

    Again L-W. That happens only when you have 3 hearts and no upgrades. Link is far better than any player can be. I’m not truly dissing your skills it was a joke.
    Any character’s stats are greatly limited on a game to attempt to provide a challenge. That is why I go to books. Like I said before, the Master Sword was created to leave any character considered evil by either the deities on LoZ or Link. My analogy was a little extreme, but it does get the point across.

    Like I said, the Light Arrows would not instantly kill Kharn due to Khorne’s power inside. When it hits him however, it’ll leave more than just a sting. You see it’s not the arrow, but it’s power. This is why Ganon cannot take a Light Arrow and still be standing. Kharne is considered evil, therefore he would get the full effects.

    “Link is stronger because I say so, he has power mitts, how strong do they make him? How do I know? But they make him STRONGER THAN KHARN!”

    I have been saying that it would be a close fight. You are the one saying that Kharn would leave Link in the dust. You don’t see it but you do exactly what you say I do. I’ve been actually considering these points. My analogies might sound more off than I thought. I might have gotten seriously annoyed with the insults at the time. I have been adding more to these points you say have been proven wrong. You have not proven them wrong though. That’s your problem. What you’ve been saying is telling me that I’m overestimating Kharn. I’m still going to say it’ll be a close fight even if I am overestimating Kharn. Either way I’m saying it’s close. Matapiojo, thanks for not insulting or takking what I say extreme

    That one dude, you have not presented any arguements that prove anything. I accept a loss when a loss is proven, but there has not been a proven loss. It’s pointless if you base this arguement on pure insult.

    I look forward to more posts. ^_^

  68. AlphaCommando December 15, 2008 at 10:30 pm -      #68

    I laugh every time I read your posts Hero, you’re almost as bad as Hotshot is in a lack of pure common sense combined with stubbornness and a pinch of stupidity. While you make good points; they are good only in your mind (IE fanboyish).

    Example:
    “Link has never broken even a leg, no matter what hits him. The games do show blood. For instance, at the end of Ocarina of Time, when you beat Ganon, Link starts to slash at Ganon and you see green blood come into the air. For Tom and Jerry (I know it’s off subject and I can’t believe I’m going into this) Tom does die at one point. I don’t know if you’ve seen it, but on the Two Mouseketeers, when Tom fails to protect the food, he goes to the guillotine (might have misspelled). You don’t see it happen, but you see the guillotine blade come down.”

    The point went so far over your head there at I think it got lost somewhere in the vicinity of Pluto…..

    You also seem to confuse the meaning of the word genius with practical knowledge. Link is merely a fighter and has considerable practical knowledge for fighting, but he has yet to show the ability to calculate quantum Lagrangians in his head. Space marines are true geniuses; walking supercomputers with eons of practical knowledge and experience along with them.

    Another thing that brings a huge question up is that we are fighting Kharn with his standard equipment up against Link with access to every single option avaliable to him. There are plenty of bits of chaotic equipment avaliable to Kharn (tho the TT limits some stuff) that we have yet to go over. Example: Could you imagine Kharn as a Deamon Prince of Khrone? Scary I know….

    And finally a statement regarding what you are up against. Really; you are the only person defending Link in many situations. You have me, mata and L-W against you, we have proven considerable analytical skills and the ability to make an objective analysis of contenders. Do you really think that in a 3 against one where the 3 are as capable as us that we are all wrong? We have a triple redundancy “system” in this matter….so to speak.

    I’m really not to big into defeating your points (easy as it may be) as you are even more stubborn than Hotshot and Swifterdeath in the SW vs. Halo thread…I’ll leave that to L-W and Mata of they so wish.

  69. Matapiojo December 16, 2008 at 3:35 am -      #69

    “I’m really not to big into defeating your points (easy as it may be) as you are even more stubborn than Hotshot and Swifterdeath in the SW vs. Halo thread…I’ll leave that to L-W and Mata of they so wish.”

    Hehehehe…Interesting comparisons, Alpha.

    Hero’s opinions have proven o be far too tenacious for me to continue down the long path of logic I have taken on this matter along with a few others. I will graciously “bow-out” from this topic until something new is brought to the table.

    In any case, good to see life pump back into this fight nonetheless.

  70. L-W December 16, 2008 at 8:18 pm -      #70

    I have to agree with Mata here, at least with the Star Wars debate you could (To a limited degree) have a civilised debate where the opposition could see reason and reply in a fashion that was conceit to the topic of the debate.

    If Hero could provide more of a logical standpoint to debate from, instead of using baseless opinions and slander, then I may have the lustre to continue this. I’m not saying that I’m bowing out, but I will continue this when I’m not so burdened by the Christmas period.

    He has to be taught after all, conjecture is not a medium for logical discussion. Heck, we’d be doing him a favour by this. I would say he is almost on par with Hotshot, although perhaps redeemable to some degree.

  71. HeroofTime85 December 17, 2008 at 6:04 pm -      #71

    You are all mistaken. I will say something to about everything said to me. I knew someone was going to be immature enough to insult about the little fun fact I said about Tom and Jerry. Insults bring you nowhere. Link’s thoughts are never shown, but he is a genius in many ways. Kharne is a genius in different ways than Link. For one, Link has adaptability, finding a weakpoint of any enemy.

    You keep trying to use experience and experience alone to your advantage. You don’t understand that Link has just as much experience as Kharn at his disposal. Is that your last idea for an arguement? Sure it may be 3 people vs 1, but it’s really like a 1 on 1 because you are just repeating what Matapiojo is saying.

    You put it like I’m the stubborn one HA. You have found no proof of anything. I have nothing to prove that Link would be at a loss. That’s why I haven’t quit. You seem to be insulting me to cover up running out of ideas. I’d admit a loss if there was a proven loss. You can hate me but it doesn’t change a thing.

    You fail to understand reason. I have thought about your points on and on, but they truly don’t even prove anything. It has come to insult, showing me that you have run out of ideas. Kharn, as with Link, can fail. Link is just not facing the opponent that would win the fight.

    I’m getting bored because this is no longer a debate. I’ll type again when it is a debate, but I’ll ignore the insults because it’s pointless.

  72. x on December 17, 2008 at 8:00 pm -      #72

    Dude you can’t say that someone with like 200 years of experience has the same as someone with 10,000…

    HeroofTime85 in a fight experience means everything and Kharn has more and it seems like you have run out of ideas not L-W or Matapiojo and it is you that has no proof of much of anything you say.

    You have lost deal with it…

  73. Space marine December 17, 2008 at 8:04 pm -      #73

    Herooftime.
    Link will lose.
    He is an elf who weighs around 20kg

    Kharn is a choas space marine berserker that can lift 100+ tonnes
    He would simply throw link to the ground and kill him instantaneously.

    And stop donning everything from everygame.
    He can only choose from one of his arsenals.

    his “power mitts” otherwise known as His Gold Gauntlets can only lift that big pillar inside that mini-temple from Ganons castle.

    Kharn can throw leman russ main battle tanks.

    Agility is no problem for Kharn, Since every Space marine is Gifted with supernatural Speed, Strength,and intelligence.

    It doesnt matter about the sword herooftime
    The sword actually needs to strike its target with the blade.

    The unreal reflexes of Kharn would simply stop him from bringing his blade down by grabbing his arm,Then procceding to cut him in half with gorechild.

    Winner is Kharn

    *whisper*
    *winner anouncer* it was the wrong guy???/
    *programmers* shhh yeah.
    *winner anouncer* then who was it?
    *programmers* Chuck norris.

  74. x on December 17, 2008 at 8:06 pm -      #74

    and hey im making a chaos army can i get any ideas how i can make it good??

  75. That one dude December 18, 2008 at 2:52 am -      #75

    Space Marine

    “It doesnt matter about the sword herooftime
    The sword actually needs to strike its target with the blade.”

    Lol thats exactly what i was thinking same goes with the light arrows.
    He says the same things over and over again. Once he fires all his arrows (and misses Kharn) its hand to hand combat. And Kharns 10000 years of experience with fighting which gives him a huge advantage. Plus all his armor lets not forget the chaos god either. Go look at the Halo Vs Starwars and look what you’ll become.

  76. Matapiojo December 18, 2008 at 5:14 pm -      #76

    “and hey im making a chaos army can i get any ideas how i can make it good??”

    I can give you tons of suggestions, but this may not be the medium for it. Go to this 40k forum ( www.40kforums.com/phpBB3/ ) and drop me a message with what type of chaos army you are thinking of building.

    There are tons of things to take into consideration before picking up 40k as a hobby. Unless you have a solid idea of what you want, youll be spending a lot of money.

    I use the same moniker in that site as well. Look for Matapiojo and send me a message.

  77. x on December 18, 2008 at 5:51 pm -      #77

    hey Matapiojo how do i find you?

  78. That one dude December 18, 2008 at 10:20 pm -      #78

    *whispers so herooftime85 cant hear* I think Kharn wins…

  79. Matapiojo December 18, 2008 at 11:43 pm -      #79

    Once in the 40k forums, you can either look for me in the members list, or do a search for me as the author of the post.

    Once you locate me, you can select my name and it will take you to a screen that has the option to send me a private message. Feel free to drop me a note with whatever questions you may have about the game.

    My main army is indeed chaos, so ill be better suited to answer those questions, but I can clarify many other points from other armies as well.

    ——————————————–

    Matter of fact, admin.

    Is there a way we could have a section for general discussions? This would have been an instance where it could have been helpful.

    Some sort of BankGambling mini-forums?

    ——————————————–

    Oh and uuummmm….

    …Kharn pwns.

    (had to bring it back on topic somehow)

    A forum might be a good idea…perhaps in 2009?…Admin

  80. L-W December 19, 2008 at 1:14 am -      #80

    Prepare to face the might of my Tyranid Blitzkrieg!

  81. Space marine December 19, 2008 at 1:56 am -      #81

    NO! Prepare to face the might of my Necron Nightstalkers!

  82. x on December 19, 2008 at 2:18 am -      #82

    hey L-W how long have you played WH 40k?? and can u give me any tips?

  83. Space marine December 19, 2008 at 4:09 am -      #83

    holy hell, My sister just got bitten by a snake today.
    Brown Carpet snake.
    In a box.
    She’s at hospital.
    She will be ok non-venomous snake.

  84. Space marine December 19, 2008 at 4:20 am -      #84

    It must be Painted. No matter what.
    You have to have a Solid amount of troops for claiming and contesting objectives.
    Some oblitorators are good for serious cover fire and tankbusting, Thats the elites. You might want some Fast attack like jetbikes. A tooled up chaos lord on a bike is lethal. I would not take a bloodthirster/deamonlord unless they are in 1500+point battles.

  85. L-W December 19, 2008 at 5:35 am -      #85

    I’ve played for about ten years (Although I’m more so of a collector than a gamer) which has allotted me a very potent Tyranid Army that literally blitzkriegs an opponent with all out thunderous warfare on a grand colossal scale.

    Now, for the aspiring Chaos players, I can give you some tips that will certainly aid in your play of the 40K arena:

    1) Start off with something simple, such as the Black Legion Army, which offers a variety of play styles in its generic incarnation yet provides some cheap disposable units you can readily deploy before you advance towards the more complex units.

    The Black Legion is the ‘Vanilla’ Chaos Space Marines. It has the most options, and has access to every unit in the Chaos Space Marine Codex. A Black Legion army can be good for close combat, shooting, or a mix of the two. It’s the most versatile of all the Legions, and is good to start out with. If you are unsure what Legion to start with, then Black Legion is probably for you because it gives you the ability to try out most things in the codex, and lets you get a feel for the general Chaos army.

    2) From there you can try out different squads with different marks (Khorne bezerkers and Nurgle plague marines for example) and see what units you like best. This will let you determine your Chaos ‘style’ early on.

    Knowing what style you prefer can also direct you to what legion you wish to play as when you advance.

    3) After studying the rules associated with your basic units for some time, see what type of style you like to play as in combat; such as standoff, balanced or pure assault. Determining this early on will allow you to gauge what units you will need when tailoring your more complex units.

    In the case of my Tyranid Army, I use a large standoff force of Tyranid Artillery (Biomorph and Venom Cannons) to pummel the enemy from a distance, whilst using only several Carnifex Devourers to sabotage vehicles and generally displace or kill rear-line units. Once I’ve wittled down their front line defences after a sustained barrage, I usually charge with a full blown Stealer/Ripper/Carnifex combo that turns any survivors to mush.

    4) Know the rules like the back of your hand. In a match involving moderately skilled players, you’re encouraged to pick up the pace without double-checking or verifying your last move. Be confident in what you know and make sure you’re not going to stall the game.

    5) Read the Codex’s, having some background knowledge on your units gives you some edge on the battlefield when determining what next move is best.

    6) Since you’ll be spending a lot of time painting and configuring your units, I suggest you find a configuration that suits you best. Also, try and create a unique paint job (Often referred to as Mark) that’ll make your army instantly recognisable with other players.

    7) Be prepared to empty you wallet.

    I can give you more help once you’ve determined how you want to play.

  86. Matapiojo December 19, 2008 at 9:19 am -      #86

    “Prepare to face the might of my Tyranid Blitzkrieg!”

    Those can be scary indeed, but I think I’ll stick to my Bloody Pus (Khorne/Nurgle) marines. They can take a brutal beating as well as dish one out themselves.

  87. HeroofTime85 December 19, 2008 at 3:25 pm -      #87

    Since this is the only debate related thing, I’ll just talk about it and look at the other posts. Kharne does not have more experience than Link at his disposal. Link himself may have a few hundred years, but the Fierce Deity has had many many thousands of years. The scenario I like the most in a fight like this is if Kharne and the Fierce Deity had equal experience because that would be an epic battle ^_^

    I’ll throw this in because I hear it all the time. This is COMPOSITE LINK. He has all items from all games. Plus you also misjudge Link’s agility. As with Link, Gorechild has to hit it’s target to damage it.

  88. x on December 19, 2008 at 4:49 pm -      #88

    L-W i want a army that can hit hard in melee and has alot of support to the melee units.
    I like a blind melee rush as much is i love a planed out attack

  89. Matapiojo December 19, 2008 at 5:01 pm -      #89

    @x on

    You’d do wise to stick to Chaos then. I sent you a couple messages in the 40k forums. I hope those are able to help. If you have any more questions, let me know.

  90. Space marine December 19, 2008 at 7:04 pm -      #90

    A lot of support?
    Then you would like orks.
    Chaos space marines are few in number because of the points.
    wher’es the orks are cheap and still str 4 in close combat.

  91. Space marine December 19, 2008 at 7:54 pm -      #91

    Or how about the New Chaos Demons.
    They can teleport their whole entire Army anywhere on the table, That means that they can claim objectives on turn1.

  92. Space marine December 19, 2008 at 8:08 pm -      #92

    Hero of time please,
    shutup.
    You are beat Kharn has more experiance,agility strength,and durability.
    I mean,This Dude has fallen from a spaceport in orbit And while he was falling to the planet he was hit 7 times from flak guns then landed on a side of a mountain and that didnt render him uncouncious.
    Kharne is more then likely 14 feet high, his chain axe can drain the soul of whomever feels it’s teeth.

    Link would shoot his light arrows,yeah,but then kharn would just dodge them all.
    Links agility is like it is in the game kinda fast-ish.
    In the time link pulled a light arrow out of his quiver he would be decapitated and used as a special skull for his collection.

  93. L-W December 19, 2008 at 9:29 pm -      #93

    “L-W i want a army that can hit hard in melee and has alot of support to the melee units.”

    Ah, good choice sir. For this I would recommend either:

    World Eaters. Khorne (World Eaters) is a close combat oriented legion that serves the blood god. Their main daemons are the Bloodletters, and the Bloodthirster. Their main troop choice is Berserkers. Basically, they charge forward and try to get into assault, usually backed up by a Predator for some fire support. They have limited firepower, but they make up for it in close combat. The Sacred number is 8. If you like crazy blood frenzy units charging for close combat, then World Eaters may be for you.

    Or you can use the World Bearers to somewhat of the same extent. World Bearers are an infantry and daemon heavy force with access to all types of daemons. They may get extra troop slots, but have to give up an Elite, Heavy Support, and Fast Attack choice. The World Bearers can be lead by Dark Apostles that makes the units around him fearless. Unfortunately, the World Bearers can’t take specialized marked squads. If you like Daemons, this is the Legion for you. If you wish to specialise in heavy infantry with moral support, then I’d recommend this.

  94. Space marine December 19, 2008 at 11:43 pm -      #94

    If you really like deamons get a deamon army and convert it so its troops are deamons and chaos space marines as heavy support or something.
    Converting armies is a very fun experiance, for instance,a tainted IG army that has fallen to chaos.

  95. Matapiojo December 20, 2008 at 11:42 am -      #95

    Due to the most recent incarnation of the Chaos Codices, the specific legions L-W mentions cannot be done in terms of rules, particularly the Word Bearers. The only daemons now available to Chaos Marines are generic undivided. The mighty Bloodletters and Bloodthirsters have been recicled to form a new table-top army, Chaos Daemons.

    The Daemon Codex is very good, and most everything is close combat. However, their firepower support is not nearly as versatile as their Marine counterpart. In addition, much like the Eldar, the Daemon army is very unforgiving of mistakes. This is why this force i generally to be considered for experienced players.

    Chaos Marines provide a few advantages the Tyranids cannot. First, they are far less expensive money-wise. Their design is meant to reflect an elite force, therefore their units are high points. This means that you need to have much less numbers on the table then horde armies such as Tyranids or Orks.

    Then theres the actual variety of Chaos Marines. There is not a single army in 40 that is as customizable at this one. There is litterally hundreds of configurations you can do and still have a very effective force. If you are looking for close combat specialized unit, but still have solid ranged support, Marines are your best bet, and out of that, Chaos are even better. After all, Marines do not have Monstrous creatures such as Daemon Princes or Undivided Greater Daemons. These beasts can tear anything on the table apart while their hand to hand combat support units such as Berzerkers, Noise Marines, Plague Marines, Possessed, Raptors, etc. take care of the fodder.

    Then add to that the fact that the Basic Chaos Space Marine is point for point the best basic Troop unit in the game. Their versatility of having both Bolter AND close combat weapon + Bolt Pistol, as well as having the best stats means that these bad boys can be used for absolutely anything. Add to that the fact that they have the best upgrade options available to the army and you have a sure way to beat your opponents senseless.

    Yes, I would say Chaos Space Marines is your best choice to get into the game and still have the type of army you want.

  96. x on December 20, 2008 at 12:51 pm -      #96

    Ok thinks for all the help i think im going to get the black legion and go from there with what tipe of army i want.
    Can i get any more tips on how i can beat my bro and others.

  97. Matapiojo December 20, 2008 at 3:33 pm -      #97

    Sure can, keep sending your questions as a message in the 40k forums.

  98. x on December 20, 2008 at 7:10 pm -      #98

    Hey L-W you got any tips i can use on Tyranids??

  99. AlphaCommando December 21, 2008 at 11:30 pm -      #99

    Interesting how bad this topic has fallen off…

    Might as well join; I’m a Tau player, really good at it too…standing back and mincing my enemy is fine enough for me…I’ve amassed a pretty large collection, large enough to play practically any way I want….

  100. x on December 22, 2008 at 12:12 am -      #100

    Nice can you give me any tips on how to beat the tau?

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