Magic The Gathering Vs Wheel of Time

Magic The Gathering Vs Wheel of Time

Suggested by Namer

For this universe battle, it’s Magic the Gathering going up against the Wheel of Time franchise.

What side will emerge as the winner?

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897 Comments on "Magic The Gathering Vs Wheel of Time"

  1. Secrecy27 July 16, 2014 at 6:48 am -      #1

    I’m going with “Magic, the gathering”.

  2. Rookie July 16, 2014 at 6:53 am -      #2

    I ‘l side with team 1 for now.

  3. Necroth July 16, 2014 at 7:01 am -      #3

    Oh lord this will be interesting.
    _

    I must say i am going with Magic: The Gathering, Balefire is a powerful ability, but the spells and sorceries of Planeswalkers can easily match it.

  4. Necroth July 16, 2014 at 7:12 am -      #4

    It is going to be hard to match the high tier timefuckery of magic like:
    _

    gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=728&type=card
    _

    gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=191379&type=card
    _

    www.examiner.com/images/blog/replicate/EXID21272/images/Time_Reversal.jpg
    _

    These are a few examples of timefuckery from Magic’s side.

  5. Kytheros July 16, 2014 at 7:14 am -      #5

    MTG stomps on WoT then absently wonders if what it just stepped on is worth scraping off of its shoe.
    MTG is just that absurdly powerful multiverse. If it’s not high science fiction (and I mean really high end stuff) and/or blatant and heavily involved omnipotents, MTG casually knocks it over in passing. Okay, that’s somewhat of an exaggeration, but the point is that MTG is absurdly high end, and is sufficiently high end where it is very difficult to find a setting that can stand up to it, but isn’t a setting that’s just too different and powerful in those genre differences so as to make a match worthless.

  6. Xornell July 16, 2014 at 7:27 am -      #6

    I wanna say all this multiverse planes stuff is bullshit. But I don’t know enough about MTG to say so or not. I’ll do research later and see if I can’t chime in. I haven’t died, I’m just busy adulting at the moment.

  7. Secrecy27 July 16, 2014 at 7:33 am -      #7

    I guess most of this debate will be about how to interpret the cards. Some are self-explanatory, others… not so much.

  8. LadyRamkin July 16, 2014 at 7:40 am -      #8

    @Xornell
    Bullshit in what way?? You don’t believe that its true? Or you think its over exaggerated?

  9. Kytheros July 16, 2014 at 7:59 am -      #9

    Oh, no, Xornell, MTG being a multi-planar multiverse is very much canon, and is, in fact, a major plot component in several of the various expansion series. There is actually a multi-planar and multiversal war in a few of them. That’s part of the beauty of it – it’s all part of the same multiverse, but crossing to a new section independently is pretty much the near exclusive purview of the planeswalkers, the weakest of whom can solo WoT.

    Not so much, Secrecy. MTG, even at its weakest point could simply brute force swarm WoT with masses of low level mooks – WoT has finite limits, and MTG literally has the capability to create infinite(or arbitrarily high numbers of) forces very quickly (there are several cheap/low level infinite loop combos). Or, it could break out somewhat higher grade capabilities and drop a global nuke on WoT and destroy/kill everything WoT has in a heartbeat. WoT simply isn’t powerful enough to require more than a token effort from MTG; although that should perhaps be phrased differently – MTG is just so powerful that it requires only a token effort on its part in order to obliterate WoT.

  10. Shgon Dunstan July 16, 2014 at 8:16 am -      #10

    One Omnipotent Vs Infinite Omnipotents=Tie.

    It’s kind of what the word means… This isn’t all that well thought out of a match. 😕

  11. Necroth July 16, 2014 at 8:19 am -      #11

    “It’s kind of what the word means… This isn’t all that well thought out of a match. :?”
    _

    Indeed.

  12. Necroth July 16, 2014 at 8:21 am -      #12

    Example:
    _

    gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=186309&type=card
    _

    Yeah… This is kinda Magic’s thing…

  13. Malenfant July 16, 2014 at 8:23 am -      #13

    I doubt either side has an actual omnipotent here.

  14. Shgon Dunstan July 16, 2014 at 8:38 am -      #14

    @Malenfant

    “Nigh” Omnipotents are no different then “True” Omnipotents as far as Vs go, not unless there’s one of said in the match anyway, and even then it’s just a matter of “the True Omnipotent wins… Well duh. 😕 “, which… Doesn’t make for any better of a fight.

  15. Kytheros July 16, 2014 at 9:16 am -      #15

    @Shgon
    The difference between true and nigh omnipotents in vs matches is one that matters. True omnipotents on both sides null the match, but nigh omnipotents? They don’t automatically nullify. As to my knowledge there aren’t true omnipotents here, and the nigh-omnipotent capacities of WoT are more limited in both feats and numbers relative to those of MTG – and if memory serves, WoT’s aren’t involved as full time nigh omnipotents – MTG’s nigh omnipotents trump, accustomed as they are to waging battle across the planes against other nigh omnipotents, and familiar with the concept of an overwhelming surprise first strike, and having no reason to hold back, can most likely end things before they get started, and if not, the combination of superior numbers, experience, and multi-planar capabilities would win out.

    However, if we want to limit the nigh omnipotents to their states prior to ascending to nigh omnipotence, or limit them to providing cross planar/versal transportation and masterminding/noncombat roles, that’s fine with me, although MTG still stomps all over WoT without trying very hard.

  16. Kytheros July 16, 2014 at 9:17 am -      #16

    @Shgon
    The difference between true and nigh omnipotents in vs matches is one that matters. True omnipotents on both sides null the match, but nigh omnipotents? They don’t automatically nullify. As to my knowledge there aren’t true omnipotents here, and the nigh-omnipotent capacities of WoT are more limited in both feats and numbers relative to those of MTG – and if memory serves, WoT’s aren’t involved as full time nigh omnipotents – MTG’s nigh omnipotents trump, accustomed as they are to waging battle across the planes against other nigh omnipotents, and familiar with the concept of an overwhelming surprise first strike, and having no reason to hold back, can most likely end things before they get started, and if not, the combination of superior numbers, experience, and multi-planar capabilities would win out.

    However, if we want to limit the nigh omnipotents to their states prior to ascending to nigh omnipotence, or limit them to providing cross planar/versal transportation and masterminding/noncombat roles, that’s fine with me, although MTG still stomps all over WoT without trying very hard.

  17. Necroth July 16, 2014 at 9:22 am -      #17

    I mean Magic has stuff like this FFS
    _

    i37.photobucket.com/albums/e81/FirePenguinMaster/CLR/Progenitus.jpg
    _

    Here is it compared to normal men
    _

    www.boardknight.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/progenitus.jpeg

  18. The Imperator July 16, 2014 at 9:31 am -      #18

    Going to have to say MtG. They have New Phyrexia. That means anyone that dies will get right back up to fight. Mechanically. Because nanites and black goo. That’s ignoring the hordes of necromancers on the other side. And giant flying ships with laser cannons. And the fact that Karn can time travel currently.

  19. Namer July 16, 2014 at 9:33 am -      #19

    So, that’s a hit and miss for my first match. A pity, but then that’s what I’d get for not actually looking up both sides properly. I just chucked this one in based on a cursory knowledge of both sides, plus the assumption that in MTG, the individual planes aren’t fully fledged universes unto themselves, limited to a planet or several at most.
    .
    Any way this could be made debatable? Imposing some kind of restriction of M:tG?

  20. OberHerr July 16, 2014 at 9:43 am -      #20

    Well…can we debate about it a bit? I don’t know much about MtG, and I’m fine with learning more about WoT. So….give reasons for why they solo and stuff! DEBATE! 1, 2, 3, GO!

  21. Secrecy27 July 16, 2014 at 10:07 am -      #21

    Wall of Fire.

    Primal Bellow.

    Flame Wave.

    Just some basic MtG spells.

  22. Secrecy27 July 16, 2014 at 10:21 am -      #22

    @Necroth
    There are many different hydras in MtG, and the one in the first picture isn’t the same as the one in the second, it’s clearly bigger.

  23. jackn8r July 16, 2014 at 10:29 am -      #23

    @OberHerr
    Read the WoT vs SoT debate if you really want to learn. That was back when ptaine, AHEM, Aelfinn, Shgon, and others were all arguing together for it. If you’re willing to read through it you’ll learn a lot.


    Are card game mechanics canon in MTG? If not why are card’s with strict mechanic abilities (like take an extra turn) being linked? If so, anyone have a link to the canon policy?

    EDIT: What’s the nigh omnipotent in MTG? Planeswalkers?

  24. Ragnorke July 16, 2014 at 10:56 am -      #24

    @Namer
    In the “unholy alliance” debate, Malenfant and I proved how some of the MTG cards which were being considered “overpowered” were actually weak and useless.
    As long as you limit it to the primary realm, and ban all high tier reality warpers, i’ll continue debating for WoT.
    You could say we have experience when dealing with Game-play Mechanics 😛

    Let the NLFs and faulty interpretations begin…

  25. Necroth July 16, 2014 at 10:56 am -      #25

    “Well…can we debate about it a bit? I don’t know much about MtG, and I’m fine with learning more about WoT. So….give reasons for why they solo and stuff! DEBATE! 1, 2, 3, GO!”
    _

    Okay, you see Magic has a plane named Phyrexia, Phyrexia is a plane of metal, oil and twisted mockeries of life. Under the command of it’s five monstrously powerful Praetors walk thousands of half-living machines of war, as well as billions faceless legions. The Phyrexian legions are an extremely efficient organization and they have in fact completely conquered an entire plane before. When Phyrexia wages war, it does not do so by normal means, but with engineered diseases, and dark magic that seems like nightmares come alive. Not even in death is there a release from Phyrexia’s horrors as the bodies of the fallen and the dead arise as new devices and war machines for Phyrexia to fight their own comrades along with… Improvements to their bodies, such as say… A blade instead of an arm, armor instead of skin, i think you get the idea.
    _

    “The Porcelain Legion is always looking for new recruits. They favor prisoners of war from the Razor Fields, such as leonin, loxodon, and Auriok humans. Reconfigured Mirrans, sometimes called “shattered dolls,” are literally broken down and built back up again, made to be loyal servants and soldiers for the very force they had fought before. The Porcelain Legion covers much of the newcomer’s body with hard, porcelain-like metal, but the facial features are often left relatively intact to allow the new soldier’s former comrades to recognize him or her in battle. These “dolls” rarely attain religious rank within the Machine Orthodoxy, but body parts can be recycled widely; parts of former Mirrans have even made it into the body of the Praetor Elesh Norn.”
    _

    And then there is the Eldrazi… Oh god the Eldrazi…
    _

    Beyond the thousands of planes in magic, beyond the splendor of Theros, beyond the beauty of Dominaria, beyond the horrors of Phyrexia lie the Blind Eternities, most Planeswalkers know only these as what they use to travel from plane to plane. But they are far, far more.
    _

    “The Eldrazi are an ancient race native to the Blind Eternities that have neither physical form nor color alignment. Their nature is ceaseless hunger, so they travel between planes devouring the mana and life energy until the plane’s destruction. All Eldrazi descend from one of the three Eldrazi titans: Emrakul, Ulamog, and Kozilek.”
    _

    “Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is one of the three Eldrazi titans and the inspiration for the merfolk god Emeria. It is the largest and most fearsome of the Eldrazi. It causes silent terror wherever it soars, embodying desolation, emotional and physical distance, the chill of the void, and the terror of being alone.
    The Emrakul lineage is characterized by fleshlike lattice structures, uneasy bilateral symmetry, and tentacles that end in knobby, vestigial digits. Looking like spongy, alien baleen, the lattice respires independent of the Eldrazi itself, supporting a host of unseen mite-creatures within. Some within this lineage, including Emrakul itself, float above the ground, using unknown powers to alter the surrounding gravity.”
    _

    “Ulamog, the “Infinite Gyre” is one of the three Eldrazi titans and the monstrosity whose half-forgotten name came to be known as the merfolk sea god Ula. It is emblematic of plague, the blind bonds between parasite and host, and overabundance. Ulamog is creation and destruction wrapped together in unholy harmony.
    The Ulamog brood lineage is characterized by dense masses of suckerless tentacles, multiple withered arms bifurcated at the elbow, and most unsettling, eyeless bony plates in inhuman but vaguely facial forms. The ravenous and brutish Eldrazi of the Ulamog lineage lurch and shudder over the ground, adept at spreading disease and draining from the psyches as well as the life energy of their victims.”
    _

    “Kozilek, the “Butcher of Truth” is one of the three Eldrazi titans and the inspiration for the merfolk god Cosi. It is a reality-slicing abomination of relentless insanity. Kozilek represents themes of deception, puzzles, lies, mind domination, transformation, and experimentation. Sages call Kozilek the confusion of panic, the trap of enigmas, and the harrower of thought.
    Eldrazi of the Kozilek brood lineage have many eyes growing near joints or along body ridges, jagged plates or blades of lustrous black mineral jutting from or floating around their bodies, and animalistic or insectoid anatomies covered in tough carapaces. Kozilek’s drones can absorb life just by their presence, but prefer to rend flesh with their onyx-like projections.”
    _

    “A cheer rose up from inside the fort. A rope ladder was tossed from above, and the thankful inhabitants helped Gideon back onto the platform. Fort Keff had been saved.

    And then it appeared on the horizon. Once, Gideon had demanded that his teacher tell him more. More about the Blind Eternities. More about other planes. More about everything. His teacher laughed: “No man can ever grasp everything he does not know.”

    Here on the horizon was everything Gideon did not know. Mind-numbing, phantasmal, 150 feet tall … a thing of madness. It hovered above the earth, its tentacles draped across a landscape blasted into a barren crater by its passing. In the distance, Gideon could see a ripple in the air around it, like shockwaves of energy vibrating out from its core. The mountains crumbled like sand. The red drained from the rocks, the blue faded from the sky. Life became a void.

    With a shudder of resignation, Gideon knew could not defeat this force. The most powerful mage would simply be ash on the wind. As he bore witness to the “god,” he had no doubt what the surrakar had told him was true. This was the chaos of the Blind Eternities made corporeal.

    Beside him, the captain of the guard fell to his knees and began keening softly. Gideon jerked him to his feet and forcibly turned him away from the sight from the colossal creature looming in the distance.”
    _

    Planeswalkers can summon and control that thing
    _

    marktedin.com/FullMagicJpegs/a36_EmrakulIAeonsTorn.jpg

  26. Necroth July 16, 2014 at 10:58 am -      #26

    i hope that helped

  27. Ragnorke July 16, 2014 at 11:00 am -      #27

    “Beyond the thousands of planes in magic, beyond the splendor of Theros, beyond the beauty of Dominaria, beyond the horrors of Phyrexia lie the Blind Eternities, most Planeswalkers know only these as what they use to travel from plane to plane. But they are far, far more.”

    Yea… which is why she should limit it to 1 realm, and cancel out WoTs ability to enter the dream world.
    Its technically a universesal battle, not a multiversal one.
    Different Realms are very much considered different unvierses, with their own worlds/planets and shit.
    If you want to include the infinite number of MTG realms, then we should include the infinite number of WoT realities too.
    Infinite Rands?

  28. jackn8r July 16, 2014 at 11:36 am -      #28

    “Its technically a universesal battle, not a multiversal one.
    Different Realms are very much considered different unvierses, with their own worlds/planets and shit.
    If you want to include the infinite number of MTG realms, then we should include the infinite number of WoT realities too.
    Infinite Rands?”

    That’s not how FP matches work. Universe vs Universe matches take place in a neutral FP-verse where combatants are simply ported in. Fighting can take place outside of the FP-verse, but fleeing outside the main FP-verse isn’t permitted. Whatever takes place in the FP-verse is what determines a victory.
    See rule 4:
    Battles take place in a neutral arena appropriate to the scope of the match (i.e. stadium, facility, city, continent, planet, galaxy, universe, etc.), and it is assumed no one side will have an undue disadvantage. This neutral setting will incorporate all associated elements for all combatants to operate at maximum efficiency.

    The neutral arena incorporates a merged timeline for all parties involved parting from the point they were ported in. Combatants that have control over time or may otherwise affect the timeline may not go past this merging point.
    And past Matapiojo rulings:
    You can’t use factions from extra realms. No infinite Rand, only resources and the realm itself as a location can be used.
    “Recruiting AR factions” is considered outside help and violates rule #3. Utilizing ARs and its resources would be an extension of the arena, but factions native to those ARs are off limits. The only factions accepted in this exchange are those present in each franchise’s “main” continuity.
    No omnipotents and using other realms has to be part of an offensive strategy:
    You must keep in mind that in order for there to be a debate as stipulated by BankGambling guidelines, the Xeelee need to be made defeatable. Inherent as it may be, this trait is a NLF that prevents them from loosing. Thusly, it HAS to be nerfed somehow.

    If the Xelee cannot follow, SG forfeits by leaving.

    The move has to be part of an offensive strategy.

    Forfeit via flee and turtling isn’t allowed either:
    That being said, if the Xeelee have means of pursuit, parallel-hopping is nowhere near meeting the requirements for forfeit. A party in a debate forfeits the battle only if his combatant cannot pursue; incapacitating himself, thusly.

    A party forfeits the fight when leaving the arena if the oponent has no means of pursuit and/or it is not part of an offensive strategy (meaning, fleeing). Phase/Dimension shifting is an extension of the arena, rather than a separate locale.

    However, if such a strategy is not part of an offensive, it may indeed be considered a forfeit. Similar turtling strategies are quite valid as long as the opponent is in fact able to perform attacks on you. If you are just going to sit on the other side while making faces through the plexiglass, you are not fighting to the death as expected by BankGambling.



    These are taken from the Xeelee vs SG match by the way.

  29. Aelfinn July 16, 2014 at 11:55 am -      #29

    I’ll take a crack at debating for WoT… Although I must know: what incarnation for WoT are we dealing with here?
    =
    So, we are aware that WoT has it’s own multiverse, right? That WoT is capable of travelling through and between? Because they can (even though it’s not too common, it still exists), and every universe is a completely-full one, what with the billions upon billions of stars and many planets along with it.
    =
    The Time Travel spells are a little unclear as to what exactly they allow. Considering this guy: archive.wizards.com/Magic/Multiverse/Planeswalkers.aspx?x=mtg/multiverse/Planeswalkers/karn is basically a robot who had to be specially designed for time travel, time travel doesn’t appear to be all that common.
    =
    Honestly, the Progenitus and the Eldrazi are just big targets for balefire. It’s cool that they’re big and all, but nothing is really stopping say, Rand, from popping in, balefire-ing them right in the face, and then popping out.
    =
    An idea just popped in my head:…Graendal (or someoene else) starts using Compulsion on Planeswalkers in their sleep, turning them against the other members of MTG.

  30. Aelfinn July 16, 2014 at 12:15 pm -      #30

    Sorry for double post:
    “cancel out WoTs ability to enter the dream world.”

    I really don’t think this should be done. The Dream World is an integral part of WoT, even to the point where many, many plot points happen in it or because of it.
    =
    “As to my knowledge there aren’t true omnipotents here, and the nigh-omnipotent capacities of WoT are more limited in both feats and numbers relative to those of MTG”

    The Dark One was going to destroy the entire Multiverse and re-make it in his image.

  31. Ragnorke July 16, 2014 at 12:22 pm -      #31

    So, before it hits 50 posts, can Namer limit it to single universes/realms instead of multiverses? And banning nighomnis like gods and the dark one?
    I’m sure it can be an interesting debate.

  32. Aelfinn July 16, 2014 at 2:00 pm -      #32

    Interesting quote I found:
    “Most planes are spheres with an atmosphere and one or more suns and moons; they resemble planets. But there is no law of physics common to all planes of the Multiverse. Planes can be infinite expanses of matter, tiny specks of empty space, or logic-defying inversions of normal reality. A plane can contain an entire, sprawling universe or nothing at all.”
    archive.wizards.com/Magic/Multiverse/planes.aspx

  33. Ragnorke July 16, 2014 at 2:04 pm -      #33

    So… clearly the realms need to be limited one way or another, or this becomes undebatable.

  34. jackn8r July 16, 2014 at 2:16 pm -      #34

    @Ragnorke
    How so? Utilizing known realms but not producing extra factions inside them is totally fine and debatable.

    “Its technically a universesal battle, not a multiversal one.”

    The word “universe” in this sense simply means franchise.

    “Different Realms are very much considered different unvierses, with their own worlds/planets and shit.”

    Yes.

    “If you want to include the infinite number of MTG realms, then we should include the infinite number of WoT realities too.”
    Are there infinite MTG realms? Any relevant combatants if I’m not mistaken are imported into the FP-verse. Use of said realms to procure extra combatants isn’t allowed, but using the realms themselves is totally fine (unless hiding/fleeing to them.)

  35. pimpmage July 16, 2014 at 2:17 pm -      #35

    Nice find aelfinn, I couldn’t find a quote as good as that the other day. Now those douche-canoes can shush up about a plane only being a single planet.

  36. Kytheros July 16, 2014 at 2:39 pm -      #36

    The most straightforward limitation would be to limit things to the realms/planes that have been directly shown/experienced and fleshed out to us, the audience, else then you have to pick out a specific plane or set of planes to represent MTG out of decades of new material. But once you start trimming things down that far, you’re no longer looking at “MTG”, you’re looking at a specific and partial subset of MTG, although, given their very natures, planeswalkers blow that plan out of the water. It would not be dissimilar to instead of using all of 40k, just using one inhabited/occupied planet or system.

    Technically, there are a theoretical infinite number of planes in the MTG multiverse, but we have not seen all, or even most of them, although we have seen quite a few.
    MTG is just too powerful and has too many killer rabbits up its sleeve hammerspaces.

  37. Aelfinn July 16, 2014 at 2:43 pm -      #37

    “Now those douche-canoes can shush up about a plane only being a single planet.”

    The thing is, the quote pretty much says that a plane is a “planet” most of the time. Or at least, it “resembles” a planet, which probably indicates that these planets can be smaller or larger than earth.
    =
    “Nice find aelfinn”

    The MTG website has a surprising amount of lore on it.
    =
    “So… clearly the realms need to be limited one way or another, or this becomes undebatable.”

    This may help: archive.wizards.com/Magic/Multiverse/planes.aspx
    Dominaria appears to be the “main” plane, so that plane could be connected to WoT. All the known Planewalkers could be placed in Dominaria, and they are allowed to use the stuff they know/summon from there.
    archive.wizards.com/Magic/Multiverse/planes.aspx?plane=dominaria

  38. pimpmage July 16, 2014 at 2:49 pm -      #38

    My point about planar size was to show the limitations of a planar wipe spell.

  39. Aelfinn July 16, 2014 at 2:55 pm -      #39

    “My point about planar size was to show the limitations of a planar wipe spell.”

    Honestly, I have to question the use of that spell, considering we see something like, a mountain nearby, and it doesn’t auto-win the game for you. Considering the lore of the game is that the players are Planewalkers (and Wave of Fire takes off a fifth of their health), a “Planar Cleansing” spell should destroy your opponent, unless this spell only removes summoned things.

  40. Ragnorke July 16, 2014 at 3:59 pm -      #40

    “Are there infinite MTG realms? Any relevant combatants if I’m not mistaken are imported into the FP-verse.”
    Both MTG & WoT have infinite realms/universes
    And not only “relevant” combatants are imported, the entire universe along with all its artifacts are imported. That’s how all the universal matches have been.
    Which would mean both sides get an infinite number of troops, making it literally impossible for either side to win without Omnipotent interference.

    “Now those douche-canoes can shush up about a plane only being a single planet.”
    There’s still no proof of them being the size of the real life universe. So our point still stands.
    Assuming the spell can wipe out “everything” is a NLF.

    “Dominaria appears to be the “main” plane, so that plane could be connected to WoT.”
    Ok, this is a good start.
    So it will be Dominaria vs WoTs “primary” mirror world right?
    With both sides getting people that can openly move through universes?

    “My point about planar size was to show the limitations of a planar wipe spell.”
    Nope. You called it a universal wipe spell.
    And you’ve given nothing to support how big the planets are anyways. Planets have varying sizes.

  41. Aelfinn July 16, 2014 at 5:06 pm -      #41

    “So it will be Dominaria vs WoTs “primary” mirror world right?
    With both sides getting people that can openly move through universes?”

    I think so (with the primary WoT world being the one we follow in the books). The Planeswalkers still remain able to summon everything they usually summon once placed in Dominaria.

  42. LadyRamkin July 16, 2014 at 5:08 pm -      #42

    It really doesn’t matter which realm the fight happens in if Planeswalkers are present, The whole point of MTG is that you play as a Planeswalker and either summon the combatants or magically construct combatants from different realms to your current location. A single Palneswalker has the ability to summon any combatant from any realm at a whim, assuming they have the mana.

    Also saying that MTG only gets stuff from Dominaria is like setting up 40k vs something but 40k only get imperial gaurd.

  43. LadyRamkin July 16, 2014 at 5:09 pm -      #43

    Also saying that MTG only gets stuff from Dominaria is like setting up 40k vs something but 40k only get imperial gaurd.

  44. LadyRamkin July 16, 2014 at 5:12 pm -      #44

    Most planes have star’s… and constellations and stuff, as can be seen from card art. Which kinda implies bigger than a single planet.

  45. Aelfinn July 16, 2014 at 5:18 pm -      #45

    The only other barely-reasonable option I can think of would be to place every known Plane and the WoT world onto one MASSIVE planet, which would have the surface area of the known Planes and WoT combined.

  46. Ragnorke July 16, 2014 at 5:19 pm -      #46

    “I think so (with the primary WoT world being the one we follow in the books)”
    Still need to wait for Namer to finalize this.

    “The Planeswalkers still remain able to summon everything they usually summon once placed in Dominaria.”
    Except they are limited by mana, which somehow needs to become quantifiable.
    Also we need to know how many they are, canonically, “infinite” wont do.

    “A single Palneswalker has the ability to summon any combatant from any realm at a whim, assuming they have the mana.”
    The mana adds a limitation, which stops MTG from having infinite troops.
    That’s good enough.

    “Also saying that MTG only gets stuff from Dominaria is like setting up 40k vs something but 40k only get imperial gaurd.”
    No. it’s more like saying Marvel only gets Marvel 616 instead of the infinite realities present in the multiverse.
    Which is how we do most of our universal debates.

    Using a multiverse is just asking for a never ending shitstorm.

    “The only other barely-reasonable option I can think of would be to place every known Plane and the WoT world onto one MASSIVE planet,”
    How do we specify which are “known” and which arnt?
    What if there’s just a small mention of it… but it’s otherwise completely featless.
    This probably wont end well.

    Or we could just remove Planewalkers all together.
    Gets rid of almost all the issues.
    Adding a limit for balancing purposes would be the best call i think, it’s up to Namer to decide.

  47. LadyRamkin July 16, 2014 at 5:22 pm -      #47

    magiccards.info/5dn/en/115.html
    magiccards.info/avr/en/6.html
    magiccards.info/m11/en/212.html

    These are particularly helpful.

  48. LadyRamkin July 16, 2014 at 5:25 pm -      #48

    “No. it’s more like saying Marvel only gets Marvel 616 instead of the infinite realities present in the multiverse.”
    —-
    No its not, because all of the planes are 100% canon, they arnt “what ifs”. a single planes walker can go to all of them and be like “hey, this is cool”, Phyraxia invades other planes for fun

    Useing certain card combination Planeswalkers can create infinite mana

  49. pimpmage July 16, 2014 at 5:40 pm -      #49

    Nothing in the entirety of mtg is NLF. Every. Single. Thing. In the mtg verse can be disrupted or countered with the simplest of spells. Don’t go crying about something one side of the match can’t deal with. Planar wipe would not destroy everything in the entire mtg multiverse. Both sides of this match have more than one plane of existance. Therefor, destroying one is not nlf. That’s like pitting galactus vs a normal human in a giant box and crying that galactus destroyed the entire box in an attempt to kill the human. Of course it would be everything in that box destroyed, but the multiverse where that box came from contains neigh infinite boxes. Nothing with a planar wipe requires infinite or omnipotent power. Its a spell that can be disrupted or countered.

  50. LadyRamkin July 16, 2014 at 5:48 pm -      #50

    “Every. Single. Thing. In the mtg verse can be disrupted or countered with the simplest of spells”

    you are wrong.
    magiccards.info/query?q=banefire&v=card&s=cname
    Mixing that with a infinate mana loop(which is very easy to set up mind you) basically wins you the game.

  51. itisburgers July 16, 2014 at 5:50 pm -      #51

    Thing is dominaria was rendered a wasteland when time spiral block ended. So MTG would have maybe some elementals and undead.

    Removing planeswalkers kinda turns it into WoT vs bears and skeletons.

    Nitpick: Somebody said phyrexia was ruled by the praetors, no that’s new phyrexia which used to be mirrodin. phyrexia proper was made by yawgmoth who served as the planes core.

    Balefire wouldn’t hit emrakul, because he has protection from colored spells. Balefire is a red mana spell in mtg, but wot version sounds black aligned from what I’ve read.

  52. LadyRamkin July 16, 2014 at 5:52 pm -      #52

    “Balefire is a red mana spell in mtg”

    Simply having fire in the name does not garente its a red spell

  53. itisburgers July 16, 2014 at 6:03 pm -      #53

    @ladyramkin
    gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=balefire+dragon

    gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=balefire+dragon

    No but the game calling balefire a red ability is the game calling balefire red. As I said it sounds more likes black mana based magic to me.

  54. itisburgers July 16, 2014 at 6:03 pm -      #54

    @ladyramkin
    gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=balefire+dragon

    gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=balefire+liege

    No but the game calling balefire a red ability is the game calling balefire red. As I said it sounds more likes black mana based magic to me.

  55. LadyRamkin July 16, 2014 at 6:05 pm -      #55

    @itisburgers
    that is a dragon…. that happens to be called balefire…
    there is nothing to indicate that the dragon and WoT Balefire are related in any way

    “As I said it sounds more likes black mana based magic to me.”

    ahh, i misunderstood you. but considering the effects of WoT Balfire i would say its colourless. but its impossible to tell.

  56. Ranger Lowk July 16, 2014 at 6:19 pm -      #56

    “magiccards.info/5dn/en/115.html
    magiccards.info/avr/en/6.html
    magiccards.info/m11/en/212.html
    These are particularly helpful.”

    The first one is pretty good bfr. the second give a person who can spam explosions, what’s the last good for?
    ===
    “No its not, because all of the planes are 100% canon, they arnt “what ifs”. a single planes walker can go to all of them and be like “hey, this is cool”, Phyraxia invades other planes for fun”

    The “what if” are alternates universe that can be traveled to or from. In fact one of the current avengers is from another. Deadpool and Spiderman have even run into several of their alternates. There’s even a problem where some universe are colliding and multi-dimesional invaders going around.
    They aren’t canon to 616 but they are canon to the multiverse.

  57. Ragnorke July 16, 2014 at 6:20 pm -      #57

    “No its not, because all of the planes are 100% canon, they arnt “what ifs”.”

    Different universes in the Marvel multiverse are canon too… Not sure what you’re trying to say here.

    “Nothing in the entirety of mtg is NLF. Every. Single. Thing. In the mtg verse can be disrupted or countered with the simplest of spells.”

    I dont think you understand what a NLF is…
    Just because something can be countered, doesnt stop it from being a NLF.
    A spell which kills “everything” in a NLF. It might be able to kill everything in its own universe, but that doesnt apply to other fictions.

    ” Both sides of this match have more than one plane of existance. Therefor, destroying one is not nlf.”

    This statement makes absolutely no sense…
    I suggest you go read what a NLF means.

    ” That’s like pitting galactus vs a normal human in a giant box and crying that galactus destroyed the entire box in an attempt to kill the human.”

    No. It’s like saying Galactus can destroy ANY box, regardless of its shape or material, because he has a skill called “destroy box”
    The living tribunal can create boxes Galactus would not be able to destroy. Saying that he can because of his skill is a NLF.

    “Nothing with a planar wipe requires infinite or omnipotent power. Its a spell that can be disrupted or countered.”

    Ok, now i’m certain you don’t know what a NLF is.
    NLF has nothing to do with being infinite or omnipotent.
    The galactus box example is a good enough explanation.

    “Balefire wouldn’t hit emrakul, because he has protection from colored spells. Balefire is a red mana spell in mtg, but wot version sounds black aligned from what I’ve read.”

    No, it isn’t.
    It erases things from existence.
    Balefire in MTG =/= Balefire in WoT.
    /
    /
    Anyways, it’s now passed 50 posts, because we have spent quite a bit of time debating the nature & rules of the match.
    I suggest we just wait for Namer before we continue.

  58. LadyRamkin July 16, 2014 at 6:27 pm -      #58

    “Different universes in the Marvel multiverse are canon too… Not sure what you’re trying to say here.”

    Okay, as far as i knew only 616 was. What i mean is If you take Planeswalkers out of MTG and all travel between planes then there is nothing to indicate that those planes are part of the MTG continuity. They don’t share characters, locations, history, culture, race, some dont even have the same physics, Mirrodin is made of metal and has 5 suns. Innistrad is full of movie monsters.

    whereas Earth 616, 328, 119, 216. WHATEVER, are ALL different versions of earth. there are small diferences here and there, some major differences but just looking at them you can tell they are marvel, Look at each MTG plane separately and the only thing MOST of them have in common is the colour split.

  59. Ragnorke July 16, 2014 at 6:35 pm -      #59

    “They don’t share characters, locations, history, culture, race, some dont even have the same physics, Mirrodin is made of metal and has 5 suns. Innistrad is full of movie monsters.”

    Then again there’s an infinite number of them, which just won’t do.
    How do you suggest we do it?
    Have infinite troops vs infinite troops?

    “whereas Earth 616, 328, 119, 216. WHATEVER, are ALL different versions of earth. there are small diferences here and there,”

    Actually, the differences are MUCH larger, considering it’s an entire universe! and not just 1 solar system or planet like in MTG.
    Those tiny differences… multiply them by the number of planets in the universe. Yea.

    “Look at each MTG plane separately and the only thing MOST of them have in common is the colour split.”

    I understand what you’re trying to say… but a multiverse is a multiverse… and using it in a universal match is going to end up in an undebatable shit storm.

    We can limit the number of realms being used, but we would need to give WoT access to certain mirror worlds then to balance it out… And that’s slightly hard to do, considering we don’t know too much about the infinite mirror worlds.

    We could only use the “named characters” from both sides, but that would be tricky considering the planeswalkers. And there’s a few other issues with using this method…

  60. LadyRamkin July 16, 2014 at 6:39 pm -      #60

    Its like doing a universe battle between Bayonetta and Halo, then saying since Bayonetta has 4 Realms, human, Paradisio and Inferno, and halo only has 1 you have to remove Paradisio and Inferno, which removes ALL angels and demons, which is most of the fighting force of Bayonetta OR give halo infinite master chiefs where one of them lost a tooth 2 minuets earlier than the original, or is an inch taller or has an AI called Bridget. Its ridiculous.

  61. LadyRamkin July 16, 2014 at 6:43 pm -      #61

    Just use the planes we know of, which is like 20(probably less), not infinite.

    These planes have stars. like, in the sky, at night. stars are very far away, it kind of indicates that its not just one planet. It may be a multiverse but it isnt a multiverse in the conventional sense, there arnt infinite versions of everybody.
    And since there are like 20 or less planes we know about that’s 20 or less planets of people/stuff. which is a lot of stuff, but just ignoreing it sort of devalues the Universe Vs thing

    we could take all the stuff form those planes minus the planes walkers and stick them on a giant planet vs wheel of time.

  62. LadyRamkin July 16, 2014 at 6:48 pm -      #62

    @Ranger Lowk
    Its good for… if MTG is getting beaten and needs to retreat, i supose.

    sorry for multi post

  63. The Imperator July 16, 2014 at 6:48 pm -      #63

    Agreeing with LadyRamkin.

  64. LadyRamkin July 16, 2014 at 6:52 pm -      #64

    @The Imperator
    :’) Thank you so much. you are the first person to have ever said that.

  65. Ragnorke July 16, 2014 at 7:13 pm -      #65

    “give halo infinite master chiefs where one of them lost a tooth 2 minuets earlier than the original, or is an inch taller or has an AI called Bridget. Its ridiculous.”

    It isn’t as ridiculous as you’re making it sound here, because WoT actually DOES have infinite realities, unlike Halo.
    They are proven to exist, and people can travel between them.

    “Just use the planes we know of, which is like 20(probably less), not infinite.”

    But then why is WoT limited to only 1 of its infinite universes… when MGT gets 20?
    I understand what you’re trying to say, but what you aren’t understanding is that BOTH SIDES have more than one universe.

    “we could take all the stuff form those planes minus the planes walkers and stick them on a giant planet vs wheel of time.”

    I don’t mind this… BUT this is just as “unfair” as having 20 WoT realities vs 1 MGT realm.
    Get what i mean?

    Anyhow it’s up to Namer.

    One side almost always gets an unfair advantage over the other in Matches like this, it’s usually for the better (balancing) so i don’t mind.

  66. pimpmage July 16, 2014 at 7:20 pm -      #66

    “I dont think you understand what a NLF is…
    Just because something can be countered, doesnt stop it from being a NLF.
    A spell which kills “everything” in a NLF. It might be able to kill everything in its own universe, but that doesnt apply to other fictions.”

    Ok, this is getting real old. If a spell has the range and power to destroy the universe, it is still not NLF. You could travel at a million billion trillion quintillion lightyears every millisecond for a million billion trillion quintillion years and still not have an infinite distance. Our perceived universe is probably a few million orders of magnitude smaller than the distance you would travel given the time and speed above. Just because something can destroy a universe does not mean it is anything NEAR infinite in any way. NLF does not apply.

    “But then why is WoT limited to only 1 of its infinite universes… when MGT gets 20?
    I understand what you’re trying to say, but what you aren’t understanding is that BOTH SIDES have more than one universe.”

    I think it is because every single universe in mtg is unique in every way. There is no overlapping characters or races. Where WoT might be.

  67. Ragnorke July 16, 2014 at 7:22 pm -      #67

    @Pimpmage
    Before you start raging about what you think NLF means, i’ll clarify it as much as i can:

    If character X in universe/fiction 1 has a skill which is so physically powerful, it kills ANYTHING in a single hit.
    So the skill would be something like: “kill anyone in 1 hit”
    But no one in this fictional series is stronger or above island busting scale, maybe even continent busting.

    But now, character X fights someone not from “fiction 1”, someone like say Superman.
    Would Character Xs skill kill Superman in a single hit?
    No.

    Why not?
    Because the “kill anyone” part of the skill, is LIMITED to its own universe/fiction.
    If Character X went up against someone not durable enough to tank island busting hits, such as Mario. The skill would kill Mario.
    But is Character X goes up against someone that can survive supernovas, The skill would not kill him, regardless of what it says it does.

    Assuming something does enough damage to “kill anyone” is a NLF.
    There’s always limits.

  68. LadyRamkin July 16, 2014 at 7:24 pm -      #68

    “But then why is WoT limited to only 1 of its infinite universes… when MGT gets 20?”

    Because every one of those universes its its own self contained, explained reality. Whereas the WoT Realities are ALTERNATE universes, they are the standard WoT universe with some changes, And these universes are never really expanded upon, they are entered, what, twice? and they never meet anyone while they are there

    “BUT this is just as “unfair” as having 20 WoT realities vs 1 MGT realm”.

    Regardless of how unfair it is, that’s the match, you can’t just cut 90% of MtG content because it outnumbers WoT.

  69. Ragnorke July 16, 2014 at 7:24 pm -      #69

    “Ok, this is getting real old. If a spell has the range and power to destroy the universe, it is still not NLF. You could travel at a million billion trillion quintillion lightyears every millisecond for a million billion trillion quintillion years and still not have an infinite distance.”

    What part of: “NLF has nothing to do with being infinite or omnipotent.”
    Did you not understand?

    anyhow read my above post, it makes it clear enough for a baby to understand.

  70. Ragnorke July 16, 2014 at 7:28 pm -      #70

    “Because every one of those universes its its own self contained, explained reality. Whereas the WoT Realities are ALTERNATE universes, they are the standard WoT universe with some changes, And these universes are never really expanded upon, they are entered, what, twice? and they never meet anyone while they are there”

    Doesn’t change anything.
    A multiverse is a multiverse. Both MTG & WoT have it.
    In MTG, the alternate realities are completely different. In WoT, they are rather similar.
    Why does this mean MTG gets 20 whereas WoT gets 1?
    I’m not quite getting your reasoning behind giving MTG multiple universes but limiting WoT to one.

    “Regardless of how unfair it is, that’s the match, you can’t just cut 90% of MtG content because it outnumbers WoT.”

    No. Technically either both sides get their multiverses or none.
    And Technically there is no limit to either, so it would be infinity vs infinity.
    You do not get to chose which side gets the Advantage or which side gets nerfed, & neither do i, Namer does.

    If however you are going by the rules, both sides get their multiverses (unless stated otherwise in the match description.)
    Which would lead to the Infinity vs Infinity scenario.

  71. LadyRamkin July 16, 2014 at 7:32 pm -      #71

    Lets say i agree with you for a second, WHICH plane do we pick? there is 20 odd. WHICH one, and how does that single Plane POSSIBLY represent the MTG franchise????? It is a FRACTION of MtG. So why does Wot get everything from it’s series but MtG get cut down to basically nothing???? Back to my former analogy, why does a 40k universe battle only get one of its races and how do we decide what race? Picking any single one STILL fails to represent The series completely.

  72. pimpmage July 16, 2014 at 7:36 pm -      #72

    I’m not quite getting your reasoning behind giving MTG multiple universes but limiting WoT to one.

    Because in MTG, plane 1 has a race named A that only exists in plane 1. In plane 2, there is a race named B that only exists in plane 2… etc. There is no overlap in characters or places. If the entire MtG verse was placed in a match, every race would be called in to fight. WoT alternate realities would have near perfect overlap with characters and places. Are you trying to say alternate realities count the same way as different planes in mtg?

  73. LadyRamkin July 16, 2014 at 7:41 pm -      #73

    If we changed the word “Planes” to “planets” there wouldn’t be an issue, the fact its a “multiverse is really Irrelevant since the universes we know about are completely different from each other.

  74. Ragnorke July 16, 2014 at 7:42 pm -      #74

    “Lets say i agree with you for a second, WHICH plane do we pick?”

    1. It would be up to Namer, heck he might just say to use 50. As long as it isn’t: “all of them” that’s fine. Bottom line is that neither you or i get to decide.
    2. Aelfinn said there is a “main” realm, or a prime one.

    “So why does Wot get everything from it’s series but MtG get cut down to basically nothing??”

    Except WoT doesn’t get everything from its series.
    It only gets 1 of its many canon universes.
    As you yourself said earlier, it isn’t fair but that’s the match.
    There is nothing about it in the match description, which by default would mean both sides get “everything”, including Omnipotents and infinite universes.
    But do you really think that debate is going to go anywhere?
    A limitation has to be put, and Namer gets to decide said limitation.

    “Back to my former analogy, why does a 40k universe battle only get one of its races and how do we decide what race?”

    All 40k factions exist in the same universe.
    The main thing you are ignoring, is that IF MGT gets its multiverse, by default so does WoT.
    You can’t give 1 side a multiverse and limit the other side to a single universe. (i mean.. sure.. you can… but YOU specifically cannot. Namer can.)

    ““multiverse is really Irrelevant since the universes we know about”

    Pimpmage provided a quote from a dev saying they are infinite. So, there’s that.
    Having infinite universes makes it a multiverse.
    You want MGT to have 20 of said infinite universes. Therefor WoT should get 20 of its infinite universes.
    I personally do not want this, but i’m just saying… it’s the only “default” way to do it.
    Namer can pop up and balance it however he likes.

  75. LadyRamkin July 16, 2014 at 7:49 pm -      #75

    1)You seem to be under the impression that MtG having a multiverse gives it Infinite stuff. it doesnt, it can only have the stuff we know about which is about 20 planets worth. Where as giving Wot ALL of its infinite alternate realities does give it infinite stuff

    2)There is no “prime” universe, Dominaria just happens to have more plots set in it, it is as equal to all the other planes.

    3)Mtg IS a multiverse, that’s all it is. a collection of different universes. Picking only one of those stops this being a MtG match. its Wot vs a specific universe NOT Mtg

    4)due to how multivese works in Mtg, Wot could easily be a plane IN Mtg, it even has five elements to work with.

  76. Moonbear95 July 16, 2014 at 7:57 pm -      #76

    @Ragnorke, I think what LadyRamkin is trying to get at is that the differences between the alternate realities are so tiny, that you’d essentially just be cloning characters. Thus giving you infinite Rand’s.

    However, because the MTG planes are diverse and different from each other, you’d still be giving a fair representation of that universe.

  77. Moonbear95 July 16, 2014 at 8:01 pm -      #77

    I mean, the MTG multiverse (while possibly being infinite) has only got usable, KNOWN fighters from 20 planes. So it can’t take fighters from an infinite pool of possibilities, as only 20 planes worth are known about. Granted the usable options are extensive, but far from infinite.

  78. LadyRamkin July 16, 2014 at 8:02 pm -      #78

    “Pimpmage provided a quote from a dev saying they are infinite. So, there’s that.
    Having infinite universes makes it a multiverse.
    You want MGT to have 20 of said infinite universes. Therefor WoT should get 20 of its infinite universes.”

    There are inifinate planes yes, please explain how Mtg is supposed to use anything from these panes??? they are completely undefined. we know nothing about them. at all. what i am proposing is that MtG get EVERYTHING we know about it. And those 20 planes are EVERYTHING we know. It is impossible for MtG to have more stuff than that because it has never been shown to have alternate realities, there are not multiple versions of each plane.

    @Moonbear95
    beat me to it.

  79. Numinous One July 16, 2014 at 8:04 pm -      #79

    “Pimpmage provided a quote from a dev saying they are infinite. So, there’s that.
    Having infinite universes makes it a multiverse.
    You want MGT to have 20 of said infinite universes. Therefor WoT should get 20 of its infinite universes.
    I personally do not want this, but i’m just saying… it’s the only “default” way to do it.
    Namer can pop up and balance it however he likes.”

    Just popping in real quick for this.
    Debating WoT alternate realities is almost impossible. They may be parallel worlds but we know that there are differences in them. For example in one of them the Trollocs won the Trolloc War and basically wiped out all the humans there, now you could say that gives WoT potentially tens of millions of Trollocs to draw from due to a few centuries of unobstructed breeding.

    But that is only one alternate reality, we have no idea what comprises the others, what changes may have occured in them and thus we cannot debate them because we have no facts.
    We may be able to use those possibilities that were shown during Rands fight with the Dark One because we know what occured there.

    MTG on the other hand, we have detailed knowledge on several of their planes, we have the facts needed to use them.
    Anyway that should do for now.

  80. Ragnorke July 16, 2014 at 8:11 pm -      #80

    “You seem to be under the impression that MtG having a multiverse gives it Infinite stuff. ”

    It gives it infinite planeswalkers.

    ” it can only have the stuff we know about which is about 20 planets worth.”

    No.
    It is 20 universes vs 1 universe. 20 realities vs 1 reality. 20 realms vs 1 realm.
    However you want to phrase it.

    “Where as giving Wot ALL of its infinite alternate realities does give it infinite stuff”

    Nonetheless, that is the default.
    Exactly why i said a limitation needs to be put.
    You do not get to decide that limitation.

    “Picking only one of those stops this being a MtG match. its Wot vs a specific universe NOT Mtg”

    And picking only one of the WoTs universes isn’t fair either, if both sides get “everything”, which by default they do.

    “due to how multivese works in Mtg, Wot could easily be a plane IN Mtg, it even has five elements to work with.”

    No it wouldn’t. Because WoT is a multiverse, not a universe. Stop confusing the two.
    WoT has its own infinite realities, which characters can travel between.

    ” I think what LadyRamkin is trying to get at is that the differences between the alternate realities are so tiny, that you’d essentially just be cloning characters.”

    I know exactly what she is saying.
    But allowing one team to get 20 out of infinity universes, but limiting the other team to 1 out of infinity universes, IS NOT THE DEFAULT way of doing things.
    I know it isn’t fair, which is why i have said a million times now, NAMER gets to set the LIMITATION.
    But by default, both sides would get infinite universes.

    “However, because the MTG planes are diverse and different from each other, you’d still be giving a fair representation of that universe.”

    Giving a fair representation isn’t the point here. Sorry.

    “There are inifinate planes yes, please explain how Mtg is supposed to use anything from these panes??? they are completely undefined.”

    You are selecting 20 out of infinity, but limiting WoT to 1 out of infinity.
    I don’t care how fair it sounds, or how much it represents whatever.
    By DEFAULT both sides get “everything”, including Omnipotents.
    The multiverse is not the biggest issue here.
    A limitation needs to be set, you have no say in what that is.

    “Debating WoT alternate realities is almost impossible. They may be parallel worlds but we know that there are differences in them.”

    This isn’t a problem.
    MGT gets to PICK its 20 out of infinity.
    Therefor WoT gets to PICK its 20 as well.
    We would pick the ones where all events go almost exactly the same.

  81. Ragnorke July 16, 2014 at 8:16 pm -      #81

    Bottom fucking line.
    Let the match maker explain how he wants it go down, and what he thinks the best way to balance it will be.
    Ok? ok.

  82. Moonbear95 July 16, 2014 at 8:16 pm -      #82

    “You are selecting 20 out of infinity, but limiting WoT to 1 out of infinity.
    I don’t care how fair it sounds, or how much it represents whatever.
    By DEFAULT both sides get “everything”, including Omnipotents.”

    That’s the point though, we cant use everything in this scenario as we don’t KNOW everything. If we had detailed knowledge on everything in every universe or reality from MTG and WoT, fair play, we could do that. But we don’t know everything in them, we only know the defined creatures/characters, and as the total of those that we know about have a finite limit, everything we know of should be allowed.

  83. LadyRamkin July 16, 2014 at 8:18 pm -      #83

    “I know exactly what she is saying.”
    just for reference, im a dude.

    “It is 20 universes vs 1 universe. 20 realities vs 1 reality. 20 realms vs 1 realm.
    However you want to phrase it.”
    and each plane is 1 planet, your distinction is pointless
    —-
    “You are selecting 20 out of infinity, but limiting WoT to 1 out of infinity.”
    IM not selecting 20, it has 20 planes. 20-ish. that is what it has. 20 fully characterized planes COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT OF EACH OTHER. srsly planes walker who are nigh-omnipotent are the only ones capable of moving between planes, that is why they are called Planeswalkers. I am not limiting Wot to 1 universe, but please tell me all about the other universes it has and what they are capable of.

  84. LadyRamkin July 16, 2014 at 8:23 pm -      #84

    @Ragnorke
    “Let the match maker explain how he wants it go down, and what he thinks the best way to balance it will be.”

    Fine, but the match maker stated he only has a cursory knowledge of each franchise, at least we have been able to build up pros and cons for when he/she decides.

  85. Ragnorke July 16, 2014 at 8:24 pm -      #85

    “and each plane is 1 planet, your distinction is pointless”

    This isn’t true. A quote from a dev disagrees with you here.

    “IM not selecting 20, it has 20 planes”

    No, it has infinite planes, you are selecting 20 from that infinity.

    “20 fully characterized planes COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT OF EACH OTHER.”

    Stop thinking that being “different” or “independent” changes anything. It doesn’t.
    Namer sets the limitation, that’s all there is to say.

    ” I am not limiting Wot to 1 universe, but please tell me all about the other universes it has and what they are capable of.”

    Considering there’s an infinite number of them, ok:
    1. A universe where Rand is born with 1 extra piece of hair on his head, but all other events go the exact same way.
    2. A universe where Rand is born with 2 extra pieces of hair on his head, but all other events go the exact same way.

    Such is the nature of infinity. It isn’t fair. I don’t want it to be included in the match either.
    But it is the default nonetheless, so stop bitching about it and wait for the match maker to add rules.

  86. LadyRamkin July 16, 2014 at 8:29 pm -      #86

    “1. A universe where Rand is born with 1 extra piece of hair on his head, but all other events go the exact same way.
    2. A universe where Rand is born with 2 extra pieces of hair on his head, but all other events go the exact same way.”

    Please present evidence that these universe exist, simply stating because infinite is stupid.

    “This isn’t true. A quote from a dev disagrees with you here.”

    I mean each plane has 1 inhabitable planet, as far as we know.
    —-
    “No, it has infinite planes, you are selecting 20 from that infinity.”

    NO, it has 20ish planes that we know about and can use for the debate, having infinite IS MEANINGLESS, because we KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THEM, and so CANNOT DEBATE THEM.

  87. Ninja Xtreme July 16, 2014 at 8:32 pm -      #87

    How do you guys fell with no electricity? There hasn’t been any here in Metro Manila.

  88. Ragnorke July 16, 2014 at 8:32 pm -      #88

    “Please present evidence that these universe exist, simply stating because infinite is stupid.”

    It’s canon.
    That’s exactly how infinity works.
    There are INFINITE universes, meaning EVERY POSSIBLE scenario exists. Every single one. Including the ones i mentioned above. And they are canon.

    “NO, it has 20ish planes that we know about and can use for the debate, having infinite IS MEANINGLESS,”

    They ARE STILL infinite.
    Whether you know anything about them or not, THEY ARE infinite.
    Do you understand yet? no? ok, THEY ARE INFINITE.
    You are picking 20. The 20 that you know about, and the 20 with feats and lore. But that doesn’t fucking CHANGE the fact that you are PICKING 20.
    Jesus.

    Anyways, I think Namer will get a pretty good explanation from reading the last 50 posts.

  89. LadyRamkin July 16, 2014 at 8:34 pm -      #89

    “It’s canon.”
    prove it.

  90. LadyRamkin July 16, 2014 at 8:38 pm -      #90

    Because i remember a rock, with carvings, and each carving was a world so, were there infinite carvings?

  91. Ragnorke July 16, 2014 at 8:38 pm -      #91

    “prove it.”

    wot.wikia.com/wiki/Mirror_World
    “This allows for infinite variation and so infinite Mirror Worlds.”

    Do you need me to explain what infinity means again? Every possible scenario you can think of, exists, and is canon.

  92. LadyRamkin July 16, 2014 at 8:41 pm -      #92

    “It’s canon.”
    How so?

  93. LadyRamkin July 16, 2014 at 8:43 pm -      #93

    Are you saying every series with infinite alternate realities has EVERY possibility as cannon?? really? Then how do you determine what you are talking about when referring to a series? When ALL of possibility is cannon?

    “Wasnt stargate great?”
    “no they were all killed by the goa’uld”
    “no they wernt”
    “yes they were, its cannon”

    I best stargate debates are really stale, with everyone being dead and having no feats or anything.

  94. Ragnorke July 16, 2014 at 8:44 pm -      #94

    “How so?”

    Asking the exact same question again…?

    Regardless, my point has always been, and still is, that the match is currently undebatable.
    Someone needs to balance it, and the only one with the authority to do so is Namer.

    So we shall wait.

    “Are you saying every series with infinite alternate realities has EVERY possibility as cannon?? really?”

    If having infinite realities is canon (which in this case it is), then yes.
    Every possibility is canon IF we are debating using the multiverse.
    This really shouldn’t be that complicated to understand.

    ““Wasnt stargate great?”
    “no they were all killed by the goa’uld”
    “no they wernt”
    “yes they were, its cannon””

    If you are using the multiverse in a match, then yea… this is perfectly viable.
    Point being, both sides get infinite troops.
    Or… WoT does anyways… since MGT is more limited already.

    You need to understand how a multiverse works, and how infinite realities work.
    Do you just not understand the concept? or are you being incredibly dense?

  95. LadyRamkin July 16, 2014 at 8:49 pm -      #95

    Well if you debate MtG without the multiverse it doesn’t exist, there is no home plane, or prime plane, or main plane. Its all multiverse

  96. LadyRamkin July 16, 2014 at 8:52 pm -      #96

    You are attempting to force Wot to have infinite troops because its possible they can becasue “INfiNITEy derp” and i am attempting to give MtG everything that makes it its series, Not infinite at all. not even remotely you are either super dense or a troll.

  97. Ragnorke July 16, 2014 at 8:52 pm -      #97

    “Well if you debate MtG without the multiverse it doesn’t exist, there is no home plane, or prime plane, or main plane. Its all multiverse”

    FINALLY!
    ok, now i think we can get somewhere.
    WoT DOESN’T HAVE A PRIME PLANE EITHER.
    There. Get it now?

    You’re giving one side more then one of its realms/unvierses/realities, but limiting the other side to only 1.
    Which is something that’s perfectly ok to do, i mean i would probably do it too.
    It makes a lot more sense, and represents both sides a lot better.
    But I AM NOT the matchmaker, and NEITHER ARE YOU.
    So we wait for Namer.

    Can we end this ridiculous discussion now?

    “You are attempting to force Wot to have infinite troops because its possible they can becasue “INfiNITEy derp” and i am attempting to give MtG everything that makes it its series,”

    For the love of god.
    I am NOT attempting to give any side anything.
    I am saying that BY FUCKING DEFAULT both sides get EVERYTHING. Including fucking OMNIPOTENTS.
    Which is why i want there to be a limit. I just dont think YOU get to decide that limit.
    Do you get it yet?

  98. LadyRamkin July 16, 2014 at 8:56 pm -      #98

    “WoT DOESN’T HAVE A PRIME PLANE EITHER.”
    No but when WoT is bout up everyone can go yeah i read those books, thats the plot, thats what happens lets debate that, NOT oh yeah, i liked it when rand rode that dragon to isengard save luke skywalker from the dreaded doom bunny and saved the world. (INFINITE IS FUN)
    but when mtg comes up, ALL the planes are equal, there is no one that you can just piock, and go. thats MtG

  99. Ragnorke July 16, 2014 at 9:00 pm -      #99

    “but when mtg comes up, ALL the planes are equal,”

    You’re wrong again.
    Apparently only 20 out of infinity of them are relevant. So how are they all equal?

    We all get it anyways.
    And i have said a million times i understand what you’re trying to say. But it isn’t in the god damn match description.
    And as i said earlier: The multiverse ISN’T even the biggest issue, Omnipotenets are currently still allowed.

    Do you fucking get what i’m saying yet?

  100. OberHerr July 16, 2014 at 9:01 pm -      #100

    I could have sworn people referred to one main area as the prime plain in WoT.

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