Raiden Vs Tyranid Swarmlord

Raiden Vs Tyranid Swarmlord

Suggested by DragonRebornLotM

For this fight we have Raiden from the Metal Gear franchise facing off against a Tyranid Swarmlord from Warhammer 40K.

The battle ground is Jurassic Park.

Who wins?

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238 Comments on "Raiden Vs Tyranid Swarmlord"

  1. Alpha or Omega July 7, 2014 at 6:26 pm -      #101

    “Whoops. I thought it would work.”
    /
    Happens to me sometimes too.
    /
    “Go to around 12:25 or 12:30. Raiden gets smacked a couple times.”
    /
    Except in that cutscene at 12:25, we still don’t see blood. That’s still Sam’s sword’s blur.
    /
    “I think that’s more up to rule-of-cool and Raiden’s choice than anything.”
    /
    Then we ignore rule of cool just like we did with Dante when he ran down that tower.
    This would also still tell us that it’s not able to be calculated since some objects are slowed down differently than others unless Raiden suddenly gained the ability to Telekinetically slow down objects during blade mode/zandetsu.
    /
    “Case-in-point: the Monsoon fight, where all the Helicopters fly at Raiden at one speed (during Blade Mode) and then slow down even further the closer they get.”
    /
    Yet, this doesn’t occur anywhere else so it seems more likely it was for the player to be able to cut the helicopters.
    /
    “In an older body that’s different from even the one in the Prologue.”
    /
    There was hardly any evidence of any change besides a single solid eye than a dual solid eyes.
    Besides, here’s a scene where a PMC mook impales Raiden in his newest body(not even Sam’s sword either).
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHPouzEdw68#t=360
    And in case it doesn’t show the cutscene, go to 5:56.
    /
    “When Sam and Gray Fox can block bullets from point-blank, Raiden can block bullets even in his crappy body,”
    /
    But it was never at point blank ranges.
    /
    “the back cover of MGR shows Raiden blocking bullets at close range,”
    /
    And a manual image of sensemove shows Samus dodging a laser and a tutorial video shows Pit dodging a laser. This is at point blank range for the former and close range for the latter.
    /
    “and the ability to block bullets is such an integral aspect of gameplay it comes off as a little pedantic to claim that because it doesn’t happen in a cutscene, we can’t accept it.”
    /
    While it’s an integral aspect of gameplay, we can’t say it blocks everything. If a sniper was behind Raiden while Raiden is running, and he took the shot, Raiden would get hit since he didn’t see the sniper behind him, but if it was in gameplay, Raiden would block it due to how blademode functions.
    There was a reason why I was trying to use the Samus and Pit as examples since they function nearly the same way(replace block with dodge though) in this since they can dodge at any distance with their dodge functions even against lasers.
    I could just as well claim that Samus can dodge lasers at point blank because her sense move dodge is also an integral part of gameplay. I’m not saying it shouldn’t be accepted, but NOT EVERYTHING done with blade mode should be accepted or else nearly everyone with the dodge/block functions would be able to dodge/block bullets to lasers at point blank.
    /
    “There are clear implications of his speed due to the fact that he gets defeated by Sam the first time but manages to kill him the second.”
    /
    Oh, I’m quite aware of this already…several times. I already know about the speed and strength boost. I’m just saying there wasn’t enough for him to block at point blank.
    /
    When there is effectively a “block bullets, and only bullets” button in-game, and this works no matter what distance you are from the gun or what gun is firing at you, that’s another very strong implication of his abilities.”
    /
    Or game mechanic. If I shot a bullet less than a millimeter away, he would not be able to block that unless it’s in gameplay.
    Also, I’m bringing up the sense move and Pit’s dodge again since it’s pretty much the same thing and allows Samus and Pit to dodge lasers
    /
    “In Raiden’s very first appearance in the game, he performs something like five slashes when it looks like he only did one. All of these factors paint a very clear picture about what he should be capable of, even if the game doesn’t straight-up say it.
    EDIT
    He does something like 7-10 countable slashes, actually.”
    /
    Malenfant already told me this and it was in 210 milliseconds. I don’t see how you can even prove super sonic speeds with 10 slashes and 210 milliseconds.

  2. pimpmage July 7, 2014 at 6:30 pm -      #102

    It would be super easy to pull up quotes of psykers using their powers, but psykers do not call out names for the powers they use. So I don’t know how to find something called a ‘warp blast’. I have read about people just saying a single word to make a human turn inside out in 40k. I have also seen psykers use their own power to resist psychic effects for a short time. But without any resistance or training against psychic effects, surely raiden could turn into a brain dead husk within seconds.

  3. Ragnorke July 7, 2014 at 6:31 pm -      #103

    “Why would we bring CIS into this? Both sides should be using their full capabilities depending on the scenario.”

    From my understanding CIS is always in play unless stated otherwise (or unless characters are “frenzied” or “bloodraged”)
    So if a character usually starts a fight with say his sword instead of his fire powers, that’s how he would act in a match. Instead of starting with his fire powers and thn going in with his sword.

    Obviously it doesn’t usually matter for small things like the example i gave above. But if a character usually starts with melee, then we assume he will start with melee unless he has a good reason not to.

    Being at “full capabilities” has nothing to do with this. Full capabilities does not mean a characters state of mind changes.

    “It would be super easy to pull up quotes of psykers using their powers,”

    Then pull out those quotes…

    “I have read about people just saying a single word to make a human turn inside out in 40k. ”

    The molecular structure of Raidens body is different to a regular human, so unless more detail can be provided on this feat it would be ignored.

  4. Aelfinn July 7, 2014 at 6:32 pm -      #104

    “Why would we bring CIS into this?”

    Because we always use CIS? It’s PIS that we ignore.

  5. Alpha or Omega July 7, 2014 at 6:33 pm -      #105

    @Aelfinn
    You forget to account that Raiden’s slashes can extend their range for some reason like when Raiden cut Metal Gear Ray in half and Malenfant timed it at 210 milliseconds
    /
    @Ragnorke
    “I disagree with this, you can’t claim everything you see in game is a game-mechanic.
    That rule generally only applies when something in-game is inconsistent or contradicts something you see outside of gameplay. Or if it is a numerical value that is impossible to accurately translate from a Lore standpoint.
    Raiden cutting bullets is like a key-point of the game, and he manages to do it regardless of the distance…”
    /
    Look at post 101 where I explained it.
    /
    “As for the samus & pit thing… why would they have nanosecond reaction times?
    The lasers shown in the game do not move that fast…”
    /
    I’m talking about actual goddamned lasers as in hitscan weaponry such as the charged laser from a miniboss and the laser claw.
    /
    “Bullets in MGS move at the same speed as regular bullets though.”
    /
    *Twitch*
    Okay, so you claim that lasers in Metroid and Kid Icarus are slow while the bullets in Metal Gear Rising Revengeance go slower than blaster bolts from Star Wars, and you’re claiming they go the same speeds?

  6. pimpmage July 7, 2014 at 6:35 pm -      #106

    “Then pull out those quotes…”

    I just said that psykers don’t name their powers. And this tyranid could have any number of power levels. If i were to just quote a few, you would start saying they are not relevant to whatever the hell a ‘warp blast’ is.

  7. Alpha or Omega July 7, 2014 at 6:48 pm -      #107

    Also, I’m not saying that Samus and Pit have nanosecond reaction times. It’s a game mechanic for Samus and Pit as well as Raiden.
    If you can’t accept that, not only Samus and Pit have nanosecond reaction times, nearly everyone with the dodge/block functions have nanosecond reaction times.

  8. Ragnorke July 7, 2014 at 6:54 pm -      #108

    “everyone with the dodge/block functions have nanosecond reaction times.”

    Wait what…? Are you kidding?
    Every characters “gameplay” reaction time is maxed at the reaction time of your average player.
    The player has to react to the situation and press the button.
    MGS is a different case because the game slows down, allowing the player to react to situations faster.

    Saying every character with a dodge/block function has nanosecond reaction times is almost laughable tbh…
    But i agree in-game reaction times are not generally used, and you depend on cut-scenes for more accurate representations.
    However, as i said, Blade-mode is a canon part of the game… and reaction times in blade mode would count as canon.

  9. Aelfinn July 7, 2014 at 7:02 pm -      #109

    “Except in that cutscene at 12:25, we still don’t see blood. That’s still Sam’s sword’s blur.”

    There is a splatter of blood. He gets hit once, and then when he’s on the ceiling he gets hit again. The red splatter extends past Sam’s sword. Not to mention that Sam can survive getting hit by the sword, and it’s the exact same tech as what Raiden has, if not less-advanced.
    =
    “Yet, this doesn’t occur anywhere else so it seems more likely it was for the player to be able to cut the helicopters.”

    If you enter Blade Mode while Jack the Ripper, there’s a greater slow-down than otherwise. I don’t see how a scripted event can immediately be shrugged off as game mechanics.
    =
    “Also, I’m bringing up the sense move and Pit’s dodge again since it’s pretty much the same thing and allows Samus and Pit to dodge lasers”

    They’re not lasers, unless you’re telling me that Samus and Pit dodge invisible beams of light. Furthermore, how much of that is aim-dodging, or something similar? You can’t really say. Raiden has a “dodge” mechanic as well, but no one’s claiming that his period of invulnerability translates to an ability to dodge AoE attacks. “Dodge” is a game mechanic to allow the player to avoid damage even in attacks where they should logically be hit. I wouldn’t claim that Samus can’t use her “Speed Booster” outside of gameplay. That’s an obvious implication of her abilities. Just like Raiden’s ability to block bullets.
    =
    “210 milliseconds.”

    The two visual slashes may have taken that long, but all the other movements were clearly invisible.
    =
    “You forget to account that Raiden’s slashes can extend their range for some reason like when Raiden cut Metal Gear Ray in half ”

    Raiden would still need to move his sword, regardless of how far the effects stretched.

  10. Alpha or Omega July 7, 2014 at 7:03 pm -      #110

    “Wait what…? Are you kidding?
    Every characters “gameplay” reaction time is maxed at the reaction time of your average player.”
    /
    Not if the character dodges/blocks just by holding the button. It has nothing to do with average player reactions since the character automatically dodges a hitscan laser the moment it appears just because the player was holding the dodge/block button.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRVyxhZEIFo#t=401
    Here’s Pit dodging an instant laser at close range just because the player was holding the dodge button.
    Not only does it look instant, but it’s a hitscan weapon and is acknowledged to be a laser.
    /
    “The player has to react to the situation and press the button.”
    /
    Not if the player can just HOLD down the block/dodge button.
    /
    “MGS is a different case because the game slows down, allowing the player to react to situations faster.”
    /
    MGRR(Not Metal Gear Solid silly) is not different since it’s saying hold run button to block.
    I’m talking about blade run where everyone is saying he can deflect bullets at point blank. That’s blatant game mechanics and everyone is apparently supporting it otherwise we have nanosecond reaction timers everywhere.
    I don’t just have it only for Pit and Samus.

  11. Alpha or Omega July 7, 2014 at 7:16 pm -      #111

    “There is a splatter of blood. He gets hit once, and then when he’s on the ceiling he gets hit again. The red splatter extends past Sam’s sword. Not to mention that Sam can survive getting hit by the sword, and it’s the exact same tech as what Raiden has, if not less-advanced.”
    /
    Except we only see Raiden knocked, not cut. Further more, we see no wounds and when we see a cut, we see the wounds.
    Also doesn’t change the fact that he was impaled by a non-particle cutting sword by a mook.
    /
    “If you enter Blade Mode while Jack the Ripper, there’s a greater slow-down than otherwise. I don’t see how a scripted event can immediately be shrugged off as game mechanics.”
    /
    I never said this about the Ripper mode…
    /
    “They’re not lasers, unless you’re telling me that Samus and Pit dodge invisible beams of light.”
    /
    Acknowledged to be lasers and they’re instant.Also, not every laser is invisible. Cyclops’s laser and Super man’s heat vison go at the speed of light and they’re visible.
    /
    “Furthermore, how much of that is aim-dodging, or something similar? You can’t really say. Raiden has a “dodge” mechanic as well, but no one’s claiming that his period of invulnerability translates to an ability to dodge AoE attacks.”
    /
    Non of it’s aim dodging since you dodge only when the attack goes out.
    /
    “Dodge” is a game mechanic to allow the player to avoid damage even in attacks where they should logically be hit.”
    /
    Blocking is no different either in gameplay.
    /
    ” I wouldn’t claim that Samus can’t use her “Speed Booster” outside of gameplay. That’s an obvious implication of her abilities. Just like Raiden’s ability to block bullets.”
    /
    The speed booster is not a dodge/block function though unlike the sense move.
    I also want to point out that some of the gameplay is scriptive where Samus must do this in order to progress the game. In Metroid Zero Mission, when you get the speed booster, you have to use it in gameplay in order to progress.
    Also, while Metroid Other M maybe a little bit similar to Ninja Gaiden, the other Metroid games aren’t. They are in the Metroidvania category where you must use the items to progress.
    /
    “The two visual slashes may have taken that long, but all the other movements were clearly invisible.”
    /
    Actually, the two visible slashes seem to take longer than 2 millisecond.
    /
    “Raiden would still need to move his sword, regardless of how far the effects stretched.”
    /
    Of course, I never denied that. I’m just saying it’s not super sonic.

  12. Aelfinn July 7, 2014 at 7:28 pm -      #112

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ONT6-8B94Y

    At 1:50, we see Raiden blocking bullets.
    =
    “Acknowledged to be lasers and they’re instant.Also, not every laser is invisible. Cyclops’s laser and Super man’s heat vison go at the speed of light and they’re visible.”

    No, they probably only appear instant. Every laser is in fact invisible. If it’s not invisible, it’s not a laser. Other fictions’ depiction of lasers doesn’t change what lasers should act like.
    =
    “Non of it’s aim dodging since you dodge only when the attack goes out.”

    Show me a video then, so I can see what you’re driving at. How can you dodge something in-game if it’s “instant and already out”?
    =
    “Blocking is no different either in gameplay.”

    No, there are very clear limits to blocking, at least in MGR. Becoming invulnerable for a couple seconds is a game mechanic.
    =
    “I also want to point out that some of the gameplay is scriptive where Samus must do this in order to progress the game.”

    And Boris literally tells Raiden to “use Ninja Run to block bullets”, while Raiden must use Ninja Run during the scene where he runs up World Marshall headquarters. There are many enemies in close proximity to him, and the Ninja Run allows him to survive them shooting at him.
    =
    “Actually, the two visible slashes seem to take longer than 2 millisecond.”,/i>

    You’re going to have to run it by me how Malenfant counted invisible slashes, then.
    =
    “I’m just saying it’s not super sonic.”

    How can you claim that? Velocity = distance / time. I estimated the distance his sword would have traveled, figured out the time it did it in, and that gave me a velocity, REGARDLESS of any of the long-range effects. It’s not like I figured out how long the sword was by basing it on the long-range effects.

  13. Ragnorke July 7, 2014 at 7:33 pm -      #113

    “Here’s Pit dodging an instant laser at close range just because the player was holding the dodge button.”

    In the video you posted, it clearly shows that Pit SHOULD have been hit, but he didn’t because he was “dodging”
    That is a game-mechanic. Because the mechanic contradicts what we visually see.
    Not the same situation.]

    Either that, or there is a Lore explanation for why people cant take damage while dodge-rolling.

  14. Alpha or Omega July 7, 2014 at 7:33 pm -      #114

    “Not to mention that Sam can survive getting hit by the sword, and it’s the exact same tech as what Raiden has, if not less-advanced.”
    /
    I only remember Sam only surviving one cut, and it wasn’t even that deep. The second cut killed him.
    I’d like to mention that while they are vibroblades, Raiden’s doesn’t have the atom cutting as Sam does.
    Also, just because you have the same tech doesn’t mean you always have the same thing.
    A lot of Starks enemies use Stark tech or replicate it…They aren’t on par with Ironman in any way.

  15. Alpha or Omega July 7, 2014 at 7:46 pm -      #115

    “At 1:50, we see Raiden blocking bullets.”
    /
    In a trailer over gameplay. I don’t see how that’s any different.
    /
    “No, they probably only appear instant. Every laser is in fact invisible. If it’s not invisible, it’s not a laser. Other fictions’ depiction of lasers doesn’t change what lasers should act like.”
    /
    Except it’s also instant due to the fact that it’s a hitscan weapon.
    /
    “Show me a video then, so I can see what you’re driving at. How can you dodge something in-game if it’s “instant and already out”?”
    /
    I showed you a video and Pit dodged due to game mechanics. This is what I’m trying to say to you. Raiden with ninja run can block bullets at point blank only due to game mechanics. We have no other showings.
    /
    “No, there are very clear limits to blocking, at least in MGR. Becoming invulnerable for a couple seconds is a game mechanic.”
    /
    So is blocking bullets at point blank.
    /
    “And Boris literally tells Raiden to “use Ninja Run to block bullets”, while Raiden must use Ninja Run during the scene where he runs up World Marshall headquarters. There are many enemies in close proximity to him, and the Ninja Run allows him to survive them shooting at him.”
    /
    Except he still doesn’t use ninja run to block at point blank. I never said that ninja run isn’t there, I’m just saying it can’t block bullets at point blank.
    /
    “You’re going to have to run it by me how Malenfant counted invisible slashes, then.”
    /
    Well, then I guess he just “claimed” it.
    How did you get your time then?
    /
    “How can you claim that? Velocity = distance / time. I estimated the distance his sword would have traveled, figured out the time it did it in, and that gave me a velocity, REGARDLESS of any of the long-range effects. It’s not like I figured out how long the sword was by basing it on the long-range effects.”
    /
    Alright, maybe I should have edited in that 210 milliseconds would have changed your calc in that last part. I apologize for not being clear.
    /
    Except the velocity should be different with the 210 millisecond factored in.
    32.4m/0.210s=154.29m/s
    /
    @Ragnorke
    “In the video you posted, it clearly shows that Pit SHOULD have been hit, but he didn’t because he was “dodging”
    That is a game-mechanic. Because the mechanic contradicts what we visually see.
    Not the same situation.”
    /
    Except it also goes to Raiden’s ninja run as well since we never seen Raiden block a bullet at point blank. He shouldn’t be able to block bullets at point blank range. Him blocking ‘literally everything’ is a game mechanic.

  16. Alpha or Omega July 7, 2014 at 7:52 pm -      #116

    Also, since we’re saying that the lasers aren’t lasers due to the fact that they’re visible, I also want to point out that the bullets in Metal Gear Rising Revengeance are slow in comparison to actual bullets.

  17. Cassie Hack July 7, 2014 at 8:09 pm -      #117

    To clear a few things up… Cyclops’ optic blasts aren’t lasers, and Superman’s heat vision is also not a laser, and is actually drawn as visible for the comic readers. Superman can see it true but he can also see the entire electromagnetic spectrum.

  18. Ragnorke July 7, 2014 at 8:11 pm -      #118

    “Also, since we’re saying that the lasers aren’t lasers due to the fact that they’re visible, I also want to point out that the bullets in Metal Gear Rising Revengeance are slow in comparison to actual bullets.”

    The “lasers” we see do not necessarily need to be actual lasers. They could just be other blasts of energy, which do not need to move at the speed of light.

    “Him blocking ‘literally everything’ is a game mechanic.”

    But he doesn’t block literally everything.
    If something were fast enough, his blade-mode wouldn’t be able to keep up.
    It doesn’t contradict anything from cut-scenes/lore, and it doesn’t seem too inconsistent.

    “Except it also goes to Raiden’s”

    The video you posted, showed someone being unaffected by something that clearly hit him, because he was in the middle of a dodge-roll. It is undoubtedly a gameplay mechanic.
    Raidens blocking is not the same situation.

    As Aelfinn said: “No, there are very clear limits to blocking, at least in MGR. Becoming invulnerable for a couple seconds is a game mechanic.”

    “Except he still doesn’t use ninja run to block at point blank. I never said that ninja run isn’t there, I’m just saying it can’t block bullets at point blank.”

    Saying he “can’t” do it is sort of incorrect, saying he hasn’t been proven to do it is a more acceptable way of putting it.

    Raiden can cut faster than a bullet travels, otherwise he wouldn’t be able to cut them. In order to accurately cut, you need reaction time.
    If a bullet is literally being fired at point blank, he obviously wont be able to “block” it, but he can still dodge it due to his shown speed/reaction-time since the bullet needs to leave the barrel.

    And before you go back to saying “Raiden cutting bullets is a gameplay mechanic and not canon”…
    I’ll just quote Aelfinn again: “Boris literally tells Raiden to “use Ninja Run to block bullets””

  19. Aelfinn July 7, 2014 at 8:13 pm -      #119

    “Not only does it look instant, but it’s a hitscan weapon and is acknowledged to be a laser.”

    He literally goes through the “laser”, but there’s no damage to his health. It’s not like the laser was coming at him and he got out of the way.
    =
    “In a trailer over gameplay. I don’t see how that’s any different.”

    It’s an official presentation given by the company that made it. I have given you multiple sources of that, and presented logic to you as to why Raiden should be capable of blocking effectively point-blank bullets. You have not refuted the logic, only said that such is not enough. Why are the logic, official presentations, and gameplay not enough? Is there a valid reason why that is not enough? You act as if gameplay can’t be looked to at all, and I want to hear the logic behind that as well. Gameplay is only unacceptable if it directly contradicts cutscenes or if the mechanics of the gameplay don’t make sense.
    =
    “Except the velocity should be different with the 210 millisecond factored in.”

    One problem: where’d that number come from? I know, Malenfant, but…where’d he get it? I won’t accept that number without some source or math or…something.

  20. Alpha or Omega July 7, 2014 at 8:23 pm -      #120

    The “lasers” we see do not necessarily need to be actual lasers. They could just be other blasts of energy, which do not need to move at the speed of light.”
    /
    Except other blast of energy in Kid Icarus aren’t instant like the claws are.
    /
    “But he doesn’t block literally everything.
    If something were fast enough, his blade-mode wouldn’t be able to keep up.
    It doesn’t contradict anything from cut-scenes/lore, and it doesn’t seem too inconsistent.”
    /
    Exactly, he hasn’t shown the speed to block everything. Especially a bullet at point blank.
    /
    “The video you posted, showed someone being unaffected by something that clearly hit him, because he was in the middle of a dodge-roll. It is undoubtedly a gameplay mechanic.
    Raidens blocking is not the same situation.”
    /
    Actually, that’s because before hand, Palutena says if you dodge too much, you tire out and can’t dodge as much. I just set the video at the point where the tutorial shows him dodging the laser to get to the point.
    Also, he dodges the claws three times. The first and the third time he dodges because of that. It wasn’t midroll.
    Raiden’s blocking at point blank is exactly the same.
    /

    As Aelfinn said: “No, there are very clear limits to blocking, at least in MGR. Becoming invulnerable for a couple seconds is a game mechanic.”
    /
    I know this god dang it. Why does everyone try to keep reminding me this despite the fact that I was one of the first ones to introduce Raiden’s new feats. Also, the limits to blocking sometimes have nothing to do with point blank bullets such as cyborgs grabbing Raiden or shooting a grappling hook on him.
    /
    “Saying he “can’t” do it is sort of incorrect, saying he hasn’t been proven to do it is a more acceptable way of putting it.”
    /
    He can’t cut at super sonic speeds so that means he can’t deflect a bullet at point blank.
    /
    “Raiden can cut faster than a bullet travels, otherwise he wouldn’t be able to cut them. In order to accurately cut, you need reaction time.
    If a bullet is literally being fired at point blank, he obviously wont be able to “block” it, but he can still dodge it due to his shown speed/reaction-time since the bullet needs to leave the barrel.”
    /
    First of all, I never denied that he can dodge a bullet at point blank since a cutscene shows him doing that. However, he never deflected a bullet at point blank range.
    /
    “And before you go back to saying “Raiden cutting bullets is a gameplay mechanic and not canon”…
    I’ll just quote Aelfinn again: “Boris literally tells Raiden to “use Ninja Run to block bullets””
    /
    I never denied that Raiden cutting bullets is game mechanic. I said at POINT BLANK it’s game mechanics.

  21. Ragnorke July 7, 2014 at 8:27 pm -      #121

    “First of all, I never denied that he can dodge a bullet at point blank since a cutscene shows him doing that. However, he never deflected a bullet at point blank range.”

    Why the fuck would you need to deflect a bullet at point blank when you an just dodge it…?

    I guess i completely misunderstood what you were saying… caus what you’re saying doesn’t really make sense to me… o.o

    So you’re saying Raiden can’t dodge a bullet and THEN block it with his sword… right?
    Because that’s the only way someone can block something at point blank… And it’s a pretty stupid thing to do…

  22. Alpha or Omega July 7, 2014 at 8:36 pm -      #122

    “He literally goes through the “laser”, but there’s no damage to his health. It’s not like the laser was coming at him and he got out of the way.”
    /
    The reason why he goes through the laser is because of the dodge function. The first and third shots to him are towards him.
    Regardless, I did say several times it’s a game mechanic.
    /
    “It’s an official presentation given by the company that made it. I have given you multiple sources of that, and presented logic to you as to why Raiden should be capable of blocking effectively point-blank bullets. You have not refuted the logic, only said that such is not enough. Why are the logic, official presentations, and gameplay not enough? Is there a valid reason why that is not enough? You act as if gameplay can’t be looked to at all, and I want to hear the logic behind that as well. Gameplay is only unacceptable if it directly contradicts cutscenes or if the mechanics of the gameplay don’t make sense.”
    /
    First of all, I never refuted that the ninja run can’t block bullets. I said that Raiden can’t block bullets at point blank with ninja run. Sure, the presentation demonstrates you can block bullets at close to point blank range, but that’s for the player to show that in “gameplay, you can block bullets at any range no matter the situation.” This ins’t a presentation to show Raiden’s feats otherwise we would have seen a movie instead.
    Second, gameplay presentations have shown characters like Link to be able to tank dangerous hits despite the fact that only Wind Waker Link should only be able to tank those hits thanks to cutscenes.
    I’m not saying that gameplay can’t be used at all, I’m saying it can’t be used for everything.
    /
    “One problem: where’d that number come from? I know, Malenfant, but…where’d he get it? I won’t accept that number without some source or math or…something.”
    /
    He said he checked the frames of the video.
    “It was actually 210 milliseconds, for the record. I checked the frames of the video.” Malenfant post 57.
    So, I assumed he did get the numbers for it.

  23. Aelfinn July 7, 2014 at 8:39 pm -      #123

    “He can’t cut at super sonic speeds so that means he can’t deflect a bullet at point blank.”

    Despite the math showing he can?
    =
    “So, I assumed he did get the numbers for it.”

    That’s literally no proof at all.
    =
    “I’m not saying that gameplay can’t be used at all, I’m saying it can’t be used for everything.”

    Right, but you are also ignoring the back cover of the game itself, and the logic that Old Raiden is clearly inferior to Sam, Sam is vastly superior to bullets, and that New Raiden is superior to Sam. There’s some power-scaling involved, but none of it is because the game doesn’t already imply that. The relationship between the character’s abilities are very clear. Hell, we see that Sam’s quick-draw is faster than a Raiden-slash, given that Raiden’s sword didn’t get to Sam, but Sam’s sword cut off Raiden’s arm.

  24. Alpha or Omega July 7, 2014 at 8:52 pm -      #124

    “Why the fuck would you need to deflect a bullet at point blank when you an just dodge it…?”
    /
    Because it would show that Raiden can swing at super sonic speeds and I respectfully disagree. I can let it go sometimes for blademode/zandetsu though if it didn’t vary so much.
    /
    “I guess i completely misunderstood what you were saying… caus what you’re saying doesn’t really make sense to me… o.o”
    /
    We all misunderstand eachother. I am sorry because I am a little bit tired from staying up night.
    /
    “So you’re saying Raiden can’t dodge a bullet and THEN block it with his sword… right?
    Because that’s the only way someone can block something at point blank… And it’s a pretty stupid thing to do…”
    /
    Actually, the feat I was referring to was when he was in the car and then he was ambushed. Some guy shot him and Raiden moved his head to avoid the shot.

  25. Alpha or Omega July 7, 2014 at 9:06 pm -      #125

    “Despite the math showing he can?”
    /
    Assuming the math is right, then he can but otherwise, that is debatable.
    /
    “That’s literally no proof at all.”
    /
    How are the frames not proof?
    How would you get the numbers then?
    /
    “Right, but you are also ignoring the back cover of the game itself,”
    /
    That’s still a demonstration of ninja run which shows the player that ‘they’ can do this just like Pit in a tutorial video able to dodge (if not laser) one of the fastest weapons in-game.
    /
    “and the logic that Old Raiden is clearly inferior to Sam, Sam is vastly superior to bullets, and that New Raiden is superior to Sam. There’s some power-scaling involved, but none of it is because the game doesn’t already imply that.”
    /
    The bullets in MGRR aren’t exactly bullet fast and New Raiden did clearly struggled with Sam at least since he should have ended him in one blow.
    How much powerscaling should be involved and how can we powerscale in a fight? We can’t say that New Raiden is better than Sam in everyway possible either. We know Raiden is superior, but we can’t say he has Sam’s feats since those aren’t his.
    /
    “The relationship between the character’s abilities are very clear. Hell, we see that Sam’s quick-draw is faster than a Raiden-slash, given that Raiden’s sword didn’t get to Sam, but Sam’s sword cut off Raiden’s arm.”
    /
    Well, I can say that part is true, but as I said, we can’t apply another character’s feat to another.

  26. Alpha or Omega July 7, 2014 at 9:17 pm -      #126

    “Assuming the math is right”
    /
    I should reword this, the math is right. It’s just are we using the right numbers and should it be applicable due to the situation.

  27. Xornell July 8, 2014 at 12:00 am -      #127

    Hey. What’s the situation with this right now? Seems like it’s been the only thing bustling lately, so I might as well get involved.

  28. TheSorrow July 8, 2014 at 2:34 am -      #128

    What’s the situation with this right now?

    The latest subject is just how fast Raiden is and just how effective the Swarmlord’s Psyker attacks are. Both arguments involve a certain degree of power-scaling. Some people are under the impression that because we have seen Gray Fox block bullets easily at point blank range, that Raiden (who has a more advanced technology) should be able to do that and more.

  29. LadyRamkin July 8, 2014 at 5:15 am -      #129

    @Neon Lord
    Almost all of those powers are directly caused by the Hivemind. Isn’t that outside help?? Is there any instance of these feats being accomplished without the Hivemind’s involvement.

  30. Neon Lord July 8, 2014 at 5:40 am -      #130

    “Almost all of those powers are directly caused by the Hivemind. Isn’t that outside help??”

    I hate this argument. Saying the Swarmlord is fighting without the Hive Mind is the same as saying Raiden is fighting without his brain.

  31. Neon Lord July 8, 2014 at 5:54 am -      #131

    “The swarmlord of Far Ranging Hunger had made it to the seer circle, and behind it came several hundred lesser beasts. Huge and ancient it was, with respiration chimneys on its back billowing red gases. Its armour was deep red, patterned with mottled black, darkened by age. This creature had lived a long time in this form; it was wise and dreadful, and yellow eyes glowed with fell intelligence beneath a horned brow. It hissed as it approached the farseers.
    A squad of Guardians ran to intercept this leader, their shuriken catapults spitting razored death at it. The discs thunked into its armour without effect. Its swords moved in a blur, impossible to dodge, each blow severing a thread of destiny and leaving an eldar dead on the ground. Dozens of bolts of light hammered into it, fired off by the Guardians’ support weapon platform. The swarmlord turned to it, smashing Guardians aside with its fists and tail. It ran at the weapon. One of the Guardians held his ground, and died under a bonesword for his bravery; the other ran screaming, clutching at his pointed helmet as the terror of the hive mind drove him mad. A second blade fell, cutting the cannon in two with a shower of sparks.
    There was nothing to stop it.” – Valedor.

    Tanks monomolecular shuriken fire, and what I assume is a Scatter Laser.

    It eventually is ambushed by Wraithguard/Wraithlords with D-weapons.

  32. Crimson Sentry July 8, 2014 at 11:08 am -      #132

    So just as a commonality, a completely mental attack such as a psychic scream can be used instantaneously at will. Here are some abilities and their descriptions that are common among the psychic shock troops of the tyranids:

    Catalyst – The Zoanthrope can send out a signal from the Hive Mind that infuses lesser Tyranid creatures with an unnatural vitality.
    Death Shock – When a Zoanthrope is slain, its death sends a psychic shockwave through the Hive Mind. All Tyranid creatures within synapse range will automatically break or flee as quickly as they can.
    Dominion – The Zoanthrope reaches into the depths of the Hive Mind and strengthens its links to the indomitable alien will, projecting a blanket of control and purpose through its synapse to all Tyranid bio-forms nearby.
    Hypnotic Gaze – The Zoanthrope can use its powerful gaze to snare the mind of a nearby warrior, holding it immobile and helpless as long as its stare remains unbroken. The Zoanthrope can affect a single enemy with this power, provided it can make eye contact with its intended target.
    Leech Essence – Using the raw power of the Hive Mind, the Zoanthrope creature tears the life-force from a nearby foe, devouring its essence and healing its own wounds.
    Onslaught – The Zoanthrope infuses a nearby Tyranid brood with burning energy and the pitiless drive of the Hive Mind to devour all in its path.
    Paroxysm – Summoning the power of the Hive Mind, the creature assails its foes with crippling pain, tearing at their nerve endings and filling their minds with agony that makes it difficult for them to stand, let alone fight.
    Psychic Scream – The Zoanthrope may let forth a terrible silent scream that echoes in the mind as a crippling shriek. All those sentient, living creatures (not soulless machines like the Necrons or beings of pure psychic energy like daemons) within a 20 metre radius suffer a crippling blow.
    The Horror (Psychic Power) – The Zoanthrope unleashes a wave of horror that gnaws at the resolve of its enemies.
    Warp Blast – By sending out a burning bolt of Warp energy, the Zoanthrope blasts an area with raw power. The Zoanthrope must choose a single creature within range as the target, through others nearby may be affected.
    Warp Lance – More focused and thus more potent than a Warp Blast, the Warp Lance is primarily used against heavily armoured targets and vehicles. Taking the form of a single concentrated beam of Warp energy, it can strike a single target within range.

    It also says in the codex that the Swarmlord has access to all Biomancy, Telekinesis and Telepathy powers available.

    The reason why I said before that it could pick raiden out and then mentally crush him is because once it found him with telepathy it would just dig into him mind and learn about him and if it deemed him to capable a melee combatant then it’d fry him from a distance. I would also argue whats the point in having a location if the people are going to start in front of each other? Clearly open locals are designed to allow the character with a range move the opportunity before the gap is closed. IMO on such a massive island as was stated the Swarmlord and Raiden should be at such a distance where even if Raiden knew exactly where the swarmlord was and was moving at top speed couldn’t physically reach him before a mental attack could occur, since they are instant at the discretion of the user. If it helps I’ve GMed Black Crusade where you play as chaos heretics and marines and the psychic scream and such abilities are treated as being used instantly once the users order in the initiative is resolved. There is no build up like most of Harry Dresden or Constantine’s spells, mental attacks in the 40k verse move at the speed of thought.

    For those who are wondering why if the Swarmlord is such a bamf why can’t he just cripple all the marines he fights including Marnie Sue, and the reason is because they’ve had decades if not centuries of psychic training and are physically resistant to warp effects due to their biology. To be honest the swarmlord is still successful sometimes with affecting lower tier marines with mental attacks, but Marnie is special and therefore they duke it out old school with sword and board.

  33. Ragnorke July 8, 2014 at 11:34 am -      #133

    ” I would also argue whats the point in having a location if the people are going to start in front of each other? Clearly open locals are designed to allow the character with a range move the opportunity before the gap is closed.”

    There is no point in having a location unless the OP gives more detail on it.
    By default combatants start nearby, unless specified otherwise.

    “For those who are wondering why if the Swarmlord is such a bamf why can’t he just cripple all the marines he fights including Marnie Sue, and the reason is because they’ve had decades if not centuries of psychic training and are physically resistant to warp effects due to their biology.”

    Raidens biology is as different from a regular human as it gets.
    If these psychic attacks require a “base” human to work properly, they would not work on Raiden either.

    “There is no build up like most of Harry Dresden or Constantine’s spells, mental attacks in the 40k verse move at the speed of thought.”

    CIS is still CIS, we don’t assume he uses said mental attack the second the fight starts.
    Raiden on the other hand will rush onto this guy at an extremely fast speed.

  34. OberHerr July 8, 2014 at 11:39 am -      #134

    The fact that they always have other psykers protecting them in one reason. Another is, why waste the effort? He completely dominated Papa Smurf up close, chopping off all his limbs and taking an eye. And that’s one of the best fighters in the whole Imperium. He’s just a beast. But that doesn’t mean he will go in for CQC. He’s also very practical and efficient, and if he can take an opponent out quicker by say, destroying their mind, which he definitely tries to do to those he can, he will. Its just what works best. He’s not one for unnecessary steps or fights.

    “There is no point in having a location unless the OP gives more detail on it.
    By default combatants start nearby, unless specified otherwise.”

    Whats nearby? Because honestly, this fight comes down to if Raiden can get close before the SL mind rapes him. And I don’t think we have a default….

    “Raidens biology is as different from a regular human as it gets.
    If these psychic attacks require a “base” human to work properly, they would not work on Raiden either.”

    Psychic attacks work on just about everything and anything in WH40k with a mind. The exception is species specifically outside the affect of the warp. Which, being a human, Raiden isn’t.

    “CIS is still CIS, we don’t assume he uses said mental attack the second the fight starts.
    Raiden on the other hand will rush onto this guy at an extremely fast speed.”

    Ok, prove this supposed CIS you speak of. Because as far as I can tell, he uses Psychic attacks all the time, with a mix of CQC when enemies are close. The Swarmlord is the epitome of efficiency in WH40k. His one task is to win in the best way possible. Its what he does.

  35. Crimson Sentry July 8, 2014 at 11:47 am -      #135

    @Ragnorke
    For mental attacks physiology doesn’t matter, as I mentioned, the reason for the marines to resist mental attacks such as a psychic scream is because they’ve had decades to centuries of training steeling their minds. Attacks like a warp blast which consist of a physical concussive force would also still have the same effect on Raiden. He just is a cyborg and there are plenty running around 40k that are affected by the warp just as well as a normal human. The difference with Space Marines is they have hexagrammic wards etched in their armor and sometimes bones and even as far as their eyelid flaps. Their biology is also specifically resistant to the warp, it is literally warp shunning, so unless the Emperor of Mankind designed Raiden he doesn’t have any inherit resistant to the warp from 40k. Unless you know of a crossover that I’ve never heard of then you cannot prove he has any resistance to the warp.

  36. TheSorrow July 8, 2014 at 12:24 pm -      #136

    Raidens biology is as different from a regular human as it gets.
    If these psychic attacks require a “base” human to work properly, they would not work on Raiden either.


    Oh come on, even you have to admit, that is a ridiculous argument to make. When has there needed to a be a base human for Psychic abilities to work? Could you even consider Space Marines base human? Since when did Raiden have his brain taken out for a synthetic one? Even then, what proof does that give to say he would be immune to it’s effects, when the Warp clearly transcends the physical and even when Raiden acts like a (borderline psychotic) human?

    CIS is still CIS, we don’t assume he uses said mental attack the second the fight starts.
    Raiden on the other hand will rush onto this guy at an extremely fast speed.


    For CIS to apply, there would have to be some evidence of CIS to begin with.

  37. Crimson Sentry July 8, 2014 at 12:52 pm -      #137

    @TheSorrow
    Agreed, as long as the target has a soul, which in this case all humans do in the 40k-verse the same is applied to Metal gear humans and the warps effects would function identically.

  38. Ragnorke July 8, 2014 at 12:58 pm -      #138

    @TheSorrow
    “Oh come on, even you have to admit, that is a ridiculous argument to make. When has there needed to a be a base human for Psychic abilities to work?”

    Whoa… err… i don’t know shit about WH40K, im basing it off what you guys are posting.
    To quote Crimson Sentry: “For those who are wondering why if the Swarmlord is such a bamf why can’t he just cripple all the marines he fights including Marnie Sue, and the reason is because they’ve had decades if not centuries of psychic training and are physically resistant to warp effects due to their biology”

    He said word to word that it’s because they have a different biology… well Raiden too has a different biology.
    I’m just going by what i read from you guys.

    “For CIS to apply, there would have to be some evidence of CIS to begin with.”

    Again, going by what i read on this thread, on page 1 it was stated the swarmlords engage with their claws/teeth/spikes or something.

    @Crimson Sentry
    “Agreed, as long as the target has a soul, which in this case all humans do in the 40k the same is applied to Metal gear humans and the warps effects would function identically.”

    This directly contradicts what you said earlier. Make up your mind.

  39. TheSorrow July 8, 2014 at 1:25 pm -      #139

    Whoa… err… i don’t know shit about WH40K, im basing it off what you guys are posting.

    He said word to word that it’s because they have a different biology… well Raiden too has a different biology.


    For one, that’s an association fallacy, it’s not reasonable to assume that a Space Marine’s biology would be similar enough to Raiden’s, to grant him similar immunities. Secondly, he explained in the post you quoted that their biology was altered specifically to resist the Warp and the added centuries of psychic training.

    I’m just going by what i read from you guys.

    Unfortunately, if you had read into his words a bit more, this would have been avoided.

    Again, going by what i read on this thread, on page 1 it was stated the swarmlords engage with their claws/teeth/spikes or something.

    It’s describing what it uses to fight, but it’s not the only thing, nor does it say that it prefers melee combat.

    This directly contradicts what you said earlier. Make up your mind.

    It kind of doesn’t.

  40. OberHerr July 8, 2014 at 1:35 pm -      #140

    @Rag
    “This directly contradicts what you said earlier. Make up your mind.”

    How?

  41. Ragnorke July 8, 2014 at 1:53 pm -      #141

    “For one, that’s an association fallacy, it’s not reasonable to assume that a Space Marine’s biology would be similar enough to Raiden’s, to grant him similar immunities. Secondly, he explained in the post you quoted that their biology was altered specifically to resist the Warp and the added centuries of psychic training.”

    Yea, i totally derped at understanding what the crimson sentry was saying.
    My bad ^^

  42. Crimson Sentry July 8, 2014 at 1:55 pm -      #142

    @Ragnorke
    I don’t really understand what I’m contradicting in that statement but I will clarify if it helps.

    The warps can easily affect anything that has a soul in the 40k-verse. However you cannot psychic scream a necron mentally because it has no soul and therefore no mind with which to interact (aka in 40k the mind transcends the brain), the only caveat to this is that if you are a creature with soul that has been completely lobotomized mental attacks have a diminished effect. This however does not apply to raiden since his mind is perfectly intact. Although, physical warp attacks work on creatures without a soul in 40k but with diminished effect, like Doombolting a Tau would have much less of an effect than Doombolting a Human.

    So Raiden is a human and because we obviously treat humans in the Metal Gear verse as being equivalent to their 40k-verse brothers, psychic attacks clearly are still viable. We shouldn’t even be arguing about this position really, considering it s a mainstay of BankGambling to allow effects from cross universal encounters to work on each other unless there is direct proof to support resistance.

  43. pimpmage July 8, 2014 at 2:22 pm -      #143

    I could probably find quotes about psykers using warp powers on inanimate objects. The fight between eisenhorn & crew vs the chaos titan comes to mind. Also, there is a quote in the eisenhorn trillogy that mentions a huge cyborg servitor that was mind controlled. That goes to show that nomatter how much bionics you have, you can still be effected.

  44. Aelfinn July 8, 2014 at 4:58 pm -      #144

    “How are the frames not proof?
    How would you get the numbers then”


    Him going “I counted the frames” is not proof. What if I said I counted the frames? I counted the frames and figured out it was 0.000002 seconds.
    =
    Here’s the argument for why Raiden should be able to block bullets from very close ranges. Powerscaling is only a part of it:
    In multiple official presentations of Raiden we see him blocking bullets at close range, including an official trailer and the back cover of the game itself.
    Raiden is capable of blocking bullets at close ranges in gameplay. There are multiple instances in-game in which the ability to block bullets at close range appears to be the intent of the game itself, such as when he runs through World Marshal headquarters and when fighting the GRAD. You rarely engage the enemy at distances where the ability to block at melee-range is not critical to remaining undamaged.
    Raiden is clearly fast enough to block bullets even in his Prologue body, as he performed 13 cuts so quickly that they were invisible.
    Raiden can move his limbs so fast as to channel air pressure into a shockwave (thunder strike upgrade), something which could only happen if Raiden’s limbs were moving at Mach speeds (and even then, Raiden would have to be much faster in order to make the shockwave move forward).
    Power-scaling: Sam blocks bullets at close ranges, and Raiden’s old body is clearly not enough to handle Sam, as it is an unwinnable fight in the first level. Sam’s Quick-Draw was un-blocked by Raiden during a cutscene. When Raiden faces Sam again, he defeats him, and appears capable of blocking the Quick-Draw, an attack known for its speed. In fact, that’s how he defeats him the second time, by blocking a Quick-Draw.

  45. Alpha or Omega July 8, 2014 at 6:19 pm -      #145

    “In multiple official presentations of Raiden we see him blocking bullets at close range, including an official trailer and the back cover of the game itself.
    Raiden is capable of blocking bullets at close ranges in gameplay.”
    /
    Multiple official presentations of gameplay.
    Not Raiden, gameplay. If you’re so intent on using ninja run for Raiden blocking at point blank, then it should be fair game for Pit to be able to dodge mach 2 railgun at point blank.
    /
    “There are multiple instances in-game in which the ability to block bullets at close range appears to be the intent of the game itself, such as when he runs through World Marshal headquarters and when fighting the GRAD. You rarely engage the enemy at distances where the ability to block at melee-range is not critical to remaining undamaged.”
    /
    Speculation. Sure, there are close encounters, but that doesn’t mean that you can’t slash before they attack.
    Also, not every enemy uses a gun within melee distance
    Also, it’s possible to complete levels without being detected except in parts where they force you to fight.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-8yHoFznbs
    Besides this, you can also use stealth by distracting enemies with holographic ladies.
    Also, the bullets in Revengeance are slow.
    /
    “Raiden is clearly fast enough to block bullets even in his Prologue body, as he performed 13 cuts so quickly that they were invisible.”
    /
    First of all, rule of cool has been a part of Platinum games. The invisible effect could just that since we’re basing the assumption that it takes 20 milliseconds cause it’s invisible. Other pieces of fiction have done this before.
    /
    “Raiden can move his limbs so fast as to channel air pressure into a shockwave (thunder strike upgrade), something which could only happen if Raiden’s limbs were moving at Mach speeds (and even then, Raiden would have to be much faster in order to make the shockwave move forward).”
    /
    While I will say this is super sonic, this would also give me proof that Raiden only swings at super sonic speeds with only the thunder strike skill since no other moves make air pressure into shockwaves.
    /
    “Power-scaling: Sam blocks bullets at close ranges, and Raiden’s old body is clearly not enough to handle Sam, as it is an unwinnable fight in the first level. Sam’s Quick-Draw was un-blocked by Raiden during a cutscene. When Raiden faces Sam again, he defeats him, and appears capable of blocking the Quick-Draw, an attack known for its speed. In fact, that’s how he defeats him the second time, by blocking a Quick-Draw.”
    /
    Except fighting isn’t a feat.
    I also want to point out that his quick draw is predictable since we know that since the sheath is positioned on the left side of Sam’s hip, the quick draw would only allow the slice to go upward or right. Raiden could have just easily predicted where the quick-draw would go.
    Also, I just want to point out that here.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHFdcRCnFXw#t=149
    Sure, Sam blocked bullets from this turret, but he doesn’t deflect at point blank. Just before he reaches point blank range, he raises his sword above his head and delivers a downward sword swing while the bullets are somehow missing. So, I take back about Sam having super sonic swings anyway.

  46. Ragnorke July 8, 2014 at 6:29 pm -      #146

    I’d just like to say if you’re trying to measure whether or not Raiden is supersonic (or whatever it is you’re trying to disprove) it can be done with basic maths…
    Using the whole “He hasnt deflected a point blank bullet, so he isn’t supersonic” is a terrible argument. Jus’ sayin…
    Like i really dont understand why the term “point-blank” is being thrown around OVER and OVER again, it’s completely irrelevant.
    So what if Raiden hasn’t been shown to deflect a bullet at point blank? That does not disprove anything, it just means he hasn’t been shown to do it.
    Simple calculations is the only thing that matters here, and i think Aelfinn already provided those

  47. Alpha or Omega July 8, 2014 at 6:39 pm -      #147

    “I’d just like to say if you’re trying to measure whether or not Raiden is supersonic (or whatever it is you’re trying to disprove) it can be done with basic maths…”
    /
    Except calculations can be debated and they’re sometimes questionable.
    /
    “Using the whole “He hasnt deflected a point blank bullet, so he isn’t supersonic” is a terrible argument. Jus’ sayin…So what if Raiden hasn’t been shown to deflect a bullet at point blank? That does not disprove anything, it just means he hasn’t been shown to do it.”
    /
    No it’s not. It’s almost no different than saying “proof please.”
    /
    “Like i really dont understand why the term “point-blank” is being thrown around OVER and OVER again, it’s completely irrelevant.”
    /
    It’s actually quite relevant. If you blocked at point blank than a farther distance, it would mean you not only have quicker reactions, but also faster movement.
    /
    “Simple calculations is the only thing that matters here, and i think Aelfinn already provided those”
    /
    Yet, the calculations involve the sword swings being invisible due to us only being able to perceive images in 20 milliseconds when it could also be rule of cool.
    Furthermore, only one attack of Raiden’s makes a shockwave which means, aside from that one move, Raiden can’t swing at super sonic speeds.

  48. Ragnorke July 8, 2014 at 6:44 pm -      #148

    “No it’s not. It’s almost no different than saying “proof please.””

    This is exactly what i’m saying… just ask for proof, and we’ll do our best to calculate.
    There is NO NEED to mention the words “point blank” at all.

    “It’s actually quite relevant. If you blocked at point blank than a farther distance, it would mean you not only have quicker reactions, but also faster movement.”

    I know i know, but i sorta already went over this.
    So what if Raiden hasn’t been shown to deflect a bullet at point blank? That does not disprove anything, it just means he hasn’t been shown to do it.
    Simple calculations is the only thing that matters here

    “Except calculations can be debated and they’re sometimes questionable.”

    Then you can do your best to debate against the Calculations… instead of using the “he hasnt deflected bullets at point-blank” argument…

  49. Alpha or Omega July 8, 2014 at 6:52 pm -      #149

    “This is exactly what i’m saying… just ask for proof, and we’ll do our best to calculate.”
    /
    You shouldn’t exactly calculate everything…
    /
    “There is NO NEED to mention the words “point blank” at all.”
    /
    Can I just put out here that I wasn’t the first one to say that? Would “within one meter” be fine then?
    /
    “So what if Raiden hasn’t been shown to deflect a bullet at point blank? That does not disprove anything, it just means he hasn’t been shown to do it.”
    /
    Pretty much every character hasn’t been shown to do other things yet either…
    /
    “Simple calculations is the only thing that matters here”
    /
    So if word of god/canon suddenly voiced out something that our calculations contradict, we should still accept the calcs?
    If someone else makes a calc over the same move/thing/etc. with a different result, there will be an argument or debate over it regardless. Heck, there will still be a debate over calculation since it’s just a “calculation.”
    /
    “Then you can do your best to debate against the Calculations… instead of using the “he hasnt deflected bullets at point-blank” argument…”
    /
    He didn’t make a calculation over the point blank, he made a calculation over an early cutscene in Metal Gear RR where no bullets where involved.
    I responded that with ‘it could have been rule of cool and it’s under the assumption because it’s invisible, it took 20 milliseconds or less when “fast to be invisible” has happened in other fictions as well.’

  50. Alpha or Omega July 8, 2014 at 7:01 pm -      #150

    I also responded by saying ‘only one attack of Raiden’s makes a shockwave which means, aside from that one move, Raiden can’t swing at super sonic speeds.’

  51. Ragnorke July 8, 2014 at 7:04 pm -      #151

    “So if word of god/canon suddenly voiced out something that our calculations contradict, we should still accept the calcs?”

    …But a canon word of god has not contradicted anything yey. Anyways, i think you get my point now.

    Saying someone cant do something VERY general (such as speed), just because he hasn’t done something VERY specific (such as deflected bullets at point blank) is an invalid argument.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a FP rule on this… it’s just common debating sense.

    I’m personally not saying 1 way or the other right now btw, i don’t have the time to do any calcs, nor do i have a good enough memory of the game.
    I just found your argument silly tbh.

    “I also responded by saying ‘only one attack of Raiden’s makes a shockwave which means, aside from that one move, Raiden can’t swing at super sonic speeds.”

    Well creating forward moving shockwaves would put you quite a bit faster then Super-Sonic… i THINK
    Again, dont have the time to do any calcs, typing all this on my phone…

  52. Alpha or Omega July 8, 2014 at 7:17 pm -      #152

    “…But a canon word of god has not contradicted anything yey. Anyways, i think you get my point now.”
    /
    Actually, my point was that calculations are good. But they aren’t word of god/canon. We can’t debate against those, but we can debate over calculations.
    /
    “Saying someone cant do something VERY general (such as speed), just because he hasn’t done something VERY specific (such as deflected bullets at point blank) is an invalid argument.”
    /
    Except the claim is over something that was never shown anywhere else where but in gameplay.
    It’s not scriptive nor unavoidable. Sure, it’s possible but at the same time, it could be impossible.
    It’s like the block/dodge argument I made earlier.
    /
    “Well creating forward moving shockwaves would put you quite a bit faster then Super-Sonic… i THINK
    Again, dont have the time to do any calcs, typing all this on my phone…”
    /
    Actually, it only puts you in the trans-sonic range. We even had a discussion over this on panther soul for Soma Cruz.

  53. OberHerr July 8, 2014 at 10:44 pm -      #153

    This is gonna come up with every fight with Raiden in it isn’t it….

  54. TheSorrow July 9, 2014 at 12:50 am -      #154

    It’s the same for any Dante thread.

  55. Crimson Sentry July 9, 2014 at 1:25 am -      #155

    All the speed calcs are moot, Swarmlord clearly wins do to being able to instantly locate and incapacitate Raiden in an instant with it’s mental capabilities. Any further argument along these lines that doesn’t directly deal with Raiden having resistance to psychic assaults is meaningless in the scope of this debate.

  56. TheSorrow July 9, 2014 at 1:49 am -      #156

    Pretty much what I had in mind as well.

  57. Aelfinn July 9, 2014 at 2:59 am -      #157

    “While I will say this is super sonic, this would also give me proof that Raiden only swings at super sonic speeds with only the thunder strike skill since no other moves make air pressure into shockwaves.”

    You are aware that the shockwave propagates forward from the hand, right? An object moving at Mach speeds creates a shockwave to the sides, normally. Also, the lack of sonic booms is common in all fictions.
    =
    “Multiple official presentations of gameplay.”

    Holy fucking shit, the back cover of the game itself is physically impossible to be gameplay. You still have not given a valid counter-argument as to why gameplay cannot be included. The arguments could possibly be made for Pit’s dodges, although one would have to account for the obviously-game-mechanic invulnerability and possible aim-dodging during said argument. Raiden is not invulnerable during Ninja Run.
    =
    “Other pieces of fiction have done this before.”

    So then have them use the 20 millisecond figure! Being able to block bullets is done in many fictions, but that doesn’t mean it’s suddenly un-calculable.
    =
    “This is gonna come up with every fight with Raiden in it isn’t it….”

    It’s because if I’m even close to being right, Raiden defeats Samus in their fight, and Alpha or Omega is the main Samus debater.
    =
    “All the speed calcs are moot, Swarmlord clearly wins do to being able to instantly locate and incapacitate Raiden in an instant with it’s mental capabilities. ”

    I begrudgingly agree. For the most part. They’d likely start close to each other, as per BankGambling tradition, and if the swarmlord went melee (as every fight I’ve seen of it it has done) then it is utterly eviscerated. However, the Swarmlord likely wins the majority of the fights.

  58. Neon Lord July 9, 2014 at 3:33 am -      #158

    “It also says in the codex that the Swarmlord has access to all Biomancy, Telekinesis and Telepathy powers available.”

    The FAQ for the old codex did, not the new codex. But GW canon is composite canon of old+new lore so a moot point.

    ” The difference with Space Marines is they have hexagrammic wards etched in their armor and sometimes bones and even as far as their eyelid flaps.”

    When did standard Space Marines have this? That’s Grey Knight territory.

    “Agreed, as long as the target has a soul, which in this case all humans do in the 40k-verse the same is applied to Metal gear humans and the warps effects would function identically.”

    Warp powers work on anything that isn’t null-related. Which is basically everything.

    “and if the swarmlord went melee (as every fight I’ve seen of it it has done) then it is utterly eviscerated.”

    This isn’t a sure thing. It’s just that the Swarmlord lacks feats outside of general statements like ‘blinding speed’ and stuff.

  59. Ragnorke July 9, 2014 at 4:50 am -      #159

    Well.. thoughts arnt instant btw, likely doesnt make a difference though.

  60. TheSorrow July 9, 2014 at 5:34 am -      #160

    Well.. thoughts arnt instant btw, likely doesnt make a difference though.

    It might as be since the Swarmlord is connected to the Hive Mind. It’s thoughts need to travel hundreds of thousands of light years and communicate with trillions of Tyranids. It’s one giant brain and the Swarmlord is at the peak.

  61. Crimson Sentry July 9, 2014 at 11:11 am -      #161

    @neonlord
    Haha you caught me, you’re right only “usually” Grey Knights have the hexagrammic wards on most of their flesh. Normal marines have it on the inside of their armor sometimes and in other random areas, I don’t have scans but just through random lore I’ve read. You’ll have to trust me lol. I would try and look it up if it made more of a difference in the match but we all know any space marine physiology is warp resistant, the hexogrammic wards are only one part of that resistance.

  62. OberHerr July 9, 2014 at 11:54 am -      #162

    Space Marines do often go through a whole blessing ritual before putting on their armor. So, while Grey Knights are the only ones with Aegis, most do have various holy seals or such that help to a degree.

  63. Aelfinn July 9, 2014 at 12:57 pm -      #163

    “This isn’t a sure thing. It’s just that the Swarmlord lacks feats outside of general statements like ‘blinding speed’ and stuff.”

    It’s not just speed, though. Raiden’s durability is probably greater (considering the hits he can take from Armstrong) and his strength is vastly superior as well (as he can throw Metal Gears).
    =
    I can see why Khorne hates Psykers…damn pussies who won’t actually fight…

  64. TheSorrow July 9, 2014 at 1:01 pm -      #164

    I can see why Khorne hates Psykers…damn pussies who won’t actually fight…

    Psh just a bunch of unsophisticated barbarians with a blood addiction.

  65. OberHerr July 9, 2014 at 3:48 pm -      #165

    To be fair to the Swarmlord, he does fight. Its no small feat to almost singlehandely take out the Smurfs command, going from the top down.

  66. Alpha or Omega July 9, 2014 at 4:44 pm -      #166

    “You are aware that the shockwave propagates forward from the hand, right? An object moving at Mach speeds creates a shockwave to the sides, normally.”
    /
    Except that Raiden only creates a shockwave with the thunderstrike skill while other attacks don’t have shockwaves. This piece of fiction seems to acknowledge that one attack of Raiden is super sonic while the others aren’t.
    /
    “Also, the lack of sonic booms is common in all fictions.”
    /
    I disagree. I have seen plenty of media demonstrate sonic booms whether it was from reading a sci-fi book to watching My Little Pony.
    That’s total BS.
    Not to mention, Raiden clearly demonstrates(and is acknowledge) a shockwave with the thunderstrike upgrade while no other moves have demonstrated(nor acknowledged) the same.
    /
    “Holy fucking shit, the back cover of the game itself is physically impossible to be gameplay. You still have not given a valid counter-argument as to why gameplay cannot be included. The arguments could possibly be made for Pit’s dodges, although one would have to account for the obviously-game-mechanic invulnerability and possible aim-dodging during said argument. Raiden is not invulnerable during Ninja Run.”
    /
    First of all, the back cover image is an image from gameplay. I don’t see how it’s impossible to be gameplay. I responded why the ninja run block at point blank is impossible due to the fact that game mechanics could be involved. Also, you can still get hit by melee attacks in ninja run and if you can block bullets at point blank with ninja run, there’s no way it should be able to get hit by a melee attack in ninja run.
    Also, I already said Pit’s dodge is a game mechanic in that it’s nearly similar to Raiden and there’s no aim dodging involved due to the fact that Pit dodges only when the projectile comes near him.
    Also, it’s an “official presentation” seeing as it’s a tutorial video.
    /
    “So then have them use the 20 millisecond figure! Being able to block bullets is done in many fictions, but that doesn’t mean it’s suddenly un-calculable.”
    /
    Or it is a rule of cool. If there was an invisible effect slash effect over 20 milliseconds, you can’t claim it’s the 20 millisecond figure.
    We’re literally assuming it’s 20 milliseconds or less due to the fact that it looks invisible when it could be due to the vibroblade’s effect.
    If it was also supersonic, there would be shockwaves like they have demonstrated for the thunder strike.
    /
    “It’s because if I’m even close to being right, Raiden defeats Samus in their fight, and Alpha or Omega is the main Samus debater.”
    /
    I’m not exactly the “main”(that goes to OriginalA, he’s been there longer than I have) Samus debater as I have debated for Sonic and admitted Samus would lose to some characters.
    However, Raiden isn’t one of them. Raiden would be unable to block, dodge, nor tank the sonic boom nor power bombs as well as Samus having the ability to call down her ship to help shoot down Raiden.
    Nevermind that Samus can tank more than Raiden can thanks to energy tanks and the massive defense of her suit stacked with others in Metroid Prime and Metroid Prime 2 Echoes.
    /
    And if you want to pull off current incarnation, Samus is currently the most defensive and ‘impossible to touch’ incarnation(aside from the MP+MP2 match) to Raiden due to the fact that she has infinite screw attack jumps and can just rain down shots on Raiden while he has limited distant weapons.
    /
    “I begrudgingly agree. For the most part. They’d likely start close to each other, as per BankGambling tradition,”
    /
    Whoa whoa whoa.
    First of all, when did that ever happen and I don’t recall it ever being a “tradition”.
    Second, that never happened in every match.

  67. OberHerr July 9, 2014 at 4:57 pm -      #167

    I’ve always thought fighters started within eyesight, but a decent distance away. Depends on the size of the fighters and such, but I’ve never thought of fights starting that close to each other.

  68. Ragnorke July 9, 2014 at 5:00 pm -      #168

    “I disagree. I have seen plenty of media demonstrate sonic booms whether it was from reading a sci-fi book to watching My Little Pony.
    That’s total BS.”

    I’m with Aelfinn on this… MOST fictions lack sonic booms.

    “First of all, the back cover image is an image from gameplay. I don’t see how it’s impossible to be gameplay.”

    dude… just no…

    “Or it is a rule of cool.”

    So… everything is Game-play mechanics or just a “rule of cool”… come on, that’s a horrible argument.

    “If it was also supersonic, there would be shockwaves like they have demonstrated for the thunder strike.”

    The forward moving shockwaves need to be much faster than supersonic.
    His regular strikes could just ignore the sonic booms like most fictional universes do.

    “Also, I already said Pit’s dodge is a game mechanic in that it’s nearly similar to Raiden ”

    NO! no it isn’t.
    We literally see Pit getting hit, it clearly shows him getting hit, but he takes no damage.
    Stop calling it the same thing.

    “First of all, when did that ever happen and I don’t recall it ever being a “tradition”.
    Second, that never happened in every match.”

    I’m relatively new to BankGambling, but unless stated otherwise we assume all combatants are nearby, in vision of each other.
    Otherwise one side would likely get an unfair advantage.

    But yea Raiden has no defense for mindrape.

  69. Ragnorke July 9, 2014 at 5:07 pm -      #169

    “dude… just no…”

    I guess i didnt put much explanation behind this.
    You cannot say the back cover of a game is game-play mechanic, that is a ridiculous claim to make.
    It is an official representation of the character, as the developers see him.

  70. Alpha or Omega July 9, 2014 at 5:22 pm -      #170

    “I’m with Aelfinn on this… MOST fictions lack sonic booms.”
    /
    Excuse me? Maybe not visual, but from audio evidence we hear a sonic boom.
    From Asura running with no arms to fight a giant monsters we hear him make a massive noise.
    When Sonic breaks the sound barrier, we hear a massive noise.
    When Samus breaks the sound barrier, we hear a massive noise.
    Change most into some and that will be more accurate.
    /
    “dude… just no…”
    /
    Oh, then what’s the image from then?
    It certainly wasn’t in a cutscene.
    /
    “So… everything is Game-play mechanics or just a “rule of cool”… come on, that’s a horrible argument.”
    /
    Oh, and Aelfinn’s arguments on super sonic swings aren’t?
    First of all, the ninja run is what supports Raiden to be a point blank bullet blocker when the same ninja run can get hit by grabs or melee strikes. Smells like game mechanics.
    His calculation in the prologue depends on the invisibility effect to be in 20 milliseconds
    /
    “The forward moving shockwaves need to be much faster than supersonic.”
    /
    Or it looks visually different than the other swings since it makes a shockwave while the others don’t. Even the description says this move makes a shockwave. I don’t see the same for the others.
    /
    “His regular strikes could just ignore the sonic booms like most fictional universes do.”
    /
    Then we could just as well say that the thunderstrike shockwave ignores the speeds like other universes do since it states nothing about super sonic speeds, but only a shockwave. Also, please say some fictions instead of most fictions.
    /
    “NO! no it isn’t.
    We literally see Pit getting hit, it clearly shows him getting hit, but he takes no damage.
    Stop calling it the same thing.”
    /
    YES! Yes, it is nearly the same thing.
    When an attack reaches Raiden while blocking or ninja run, he automatically deflects it no matter how far the porjectile traveled.
    When an attack reaches Pit, he automatically dodges no matter how far the projectile comes from.
    /
    “I’m relatively new to BankGambling, but unless stated otherwise we assume all combatants are nearby, in vision of each other.
    Otherwise one side would likely get an unfair advantage.”
    /
    You don’t need to be nearby for both to see each other.

  71. Alpha or Omega July 9, 2014 at 5:28 pm -      #171

    “You cannot say the back cover of a game is game-play mechanic, that is a ridiculous claim to make.”
    /
    The back cover image is from gameplay. It wasn’t drawn nor in a cutscene. It was from gameplay so please tell me why I can’t say an image taken from gameplay isn’t an image taken from gameplay.
    /
    “It is an official representation of the character, as the developers see him.”
    /
    Or it’s an official representation of the gameplay as the developers saw it would be “cool.”

  72. Ragnorke July 9, 2014 at 5:57 pm -      #172

    “When an attack reaches Pit, he automatically dodges no matter how far the projectile comes from.”

    Incorrect.
    Pit doesnt dodge it, he gets hit by it, we see him getting hit, but he takes no damage.
    It isn’t the fucking same thing o.o Stop being so dense.

    “You don’t need to be nearby for both to see each other.”

    You may have misunderstood “nearby” then.

    “The back cover image is from gameplay. It wasn’t drawn nor in a cutscene. It was from gameplay so please tell me why I can’t say an image taken from gameplay isn’t an image taken from gameplay.”

    Being from gameplay makes it not a canon representation?
    The developers had a choice in the picture, and they chose one that would best represent the character.
    Name a single instance where a cover photo involves noncanon gameplay mechanics.

    As for the rest, i’ll just concede to it all caus it makes no difference.

  73. Alpha or Omega July 9, 2014 at 6:19 pm -      #173

    “Incorrect.
    Pit doesnt dodge it, he gets hit by it, we see him getting hit, but he takes no damage. It isn’t the fucking same thing o.o Stop being so dense.”
    /
    Except I’m talking about his dodge function in general as well. That video was just an example.
    How the hell am I being dense?
    You’re the one ignoring that they both “block/dodge when the attacks get into contact,” yet, you’re saying I’m wrong because the attacks reach Pit and when he dodges it, he touches it.”
    You’re either ignoring me or not seeing that it’s game mechanics that allows them to block/dodge when the projectile reaches them.
    /
    Aslo, he only looks like he’s touching the projectile sometimes because he and the fighters only have the one same dodge animation. It’s not like he’s suppose to be touching it since it’s a dodge. Have you ever thought that they decided to add the invincibility frames only because they couldn’t make a dodge animation for every type of attack that occurs?
    Regardless, both Raiden and Pit blocking/dodging point blank are game mechanics.
    /
    “You may have misunderstood “nearby” then.”
    /
    Oh, so what’s the distance then?
    I’m sorry that I can’t understand everything.
    /
    “Being from gameplay makes it not a canon representation?”
    /
    Of course it’s not a canon representation. We would want a cool photo of Raiden blocking a bullet for a hack and slash game, not a photo showing Raiden getting beat up.
    /
    “The developers had a choice in the picture, and they chose one that would best represent the character.
    Name a single instance where a cover photo involves noncanon gameplay mechanics.”
    /
    I can name a single official representative tutorial video for this again.
    /
    Also, I just got back from a friends house a few minutes ago.
    I played Revengeance again to see thunder strike.
    It seems that a distorted circle referred to as a shockwave only occurs when you hit an enemy or at the end of the attack. It doesn’t go forward, but sideways. We don’t see the same for others.
    /
    So when I got back, I found a video for it, and also found a description.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUDIwvxEfIA
    This move is only for the Triceps which confirms that other skills or attacks don’t go casually at super sonic. Not to mention, we don’t see a ‘distorted shockwave’ until it IMPACTS an enemy, and it doesn’t go forward…
    Not to mention, we don’t see any of this same sonicboom for any other moves.

  74. Ragnorke July 9, 2014 at 6:48 pm -      #174

    “How the hell am I being dense?
    You’re the one ignoring that they both “block/dodge when the attacks get into contact,” yet, you’re saying I’m wrong because the attacks reach Pit and when he dodges it, he touches it.””

    *sigh*
    ok lets put it this way.
    They both take no damage.
    Raiden takes no damage caus he DEFLECTS the bullets.
    Pit takes no damage because fuck logic.
    See the difference?

    ” Have you ever thought that they decided to add the invincibility frames only because they couldn’t make a dodge animation for every type of attack that occurs?”

    Which is exactly what makes it a game mechanic. Raiden doesn’t suffer from the same problem

    “Of course it’s not a canon representation. We would want a cool photo of Raiden blocking a bullet for a hack and slash game, not a photo showing Raiden getting beat up.”

    This is just an incredibly biased thing to say.
    If the devs chose a specific photo to represent a character on a cover, it doesn’t matter if it’s for “cool factor” or not, it counts as canon.

    “I can name a single official representative tutorial video for this again.”

    Tutorial video =/= cover photo

    “Oh, so what’s the distance then?
    I’m sorry that I can’t understand everything.”

    There is no set distance that i know of, only that they are usually in vision of each other.
    No need to be a dick about it.

    And as i said, i just concede.
    Raiden has no defense for mindfuck, making all this meaningless.
    We can continue on a Raiden thread where it would be relevant.

  75. Alpha or Omega July 9, 2014 at 7:22 pm -      #175

    “*sigh*
    ok lets put it this way.
    They both take no damage.
    Raiden takes no damage caus he DEFLECTS the bullets.
    Pit takes no damage because fuck logic.
    See the difference?”
    /
    First of all, Pit takes no damage because he dodges.
    Second, Not all dodges touch the projectile. Sure, the video shows his dodge animation to slow for the laser, but that is a hitscan weapon. Not the same for a mach 2 railgun.
    Third, this changes nothing, Raiden isn’t fast enough to block a bullet at point blank. So if an enemy shoots him 1mm away while ninja-running/blocking, it’s not fucking logic, but a feat…
    Sure, also ignore that grabs and unavoidable melee attacks can bypass Raiden’s blocking/ninjarun despite “point blank blocking.”
    /
    “Which is exactly what makes it a game mechanic. Raiden doesn’t suffer from the same problem”
    /
    The same reason it makes Pit’s a game mechanic. They both block/dodge at point blank due to how the game works. Game mechanic.
    /
    “This is just an incredibly biased thing to say.
    If the devs chose a specific photo to represent a character on a cover, it doesn’t matter if it’s for “cool factor” or not, it counts as canon.”
    /
    Know, it’s not an incredibly biased thing to say. You said official representations of gameplay are canon because they chose a picture of Raiden blocking because they chose it to represent Raiden.
    So what proof do you even have for somehow knowing that they do it to represent gameplay instead of Raiden. Your speculation is equal to my speculation and mine is equal to yours.
    If anything, you’re the biased one since you refuse to take any argument. I should refuse to listen to you since you’re acting ridiculous.
    /
    Ah, so Platinum games, known for rule of cool even before they were known as Platinum games should have every feat that’s cool be canon.
    I guess Dante’s hand on fire and him tanking the savior’s stomp makes him over mach 5 and a nuke taker.
    /
    “Tutorial video =/= cover photo”
    /
    Official representation=Official Representation.
    /
    “There is no set distance that i know of, only that they are usually in vision of each other.
    No need to be a dick about it.”
    /
    Except to be in vision doesn’t require anyone to be in melee or close range.
    /
    Also, excuse me?
    I recall you saying that my arguments were silly and that I was being “dense” despite that you were being just that. I didn’t call you out on it. I was even trying to keep my tone from getting angry. I’m sorry for sounding like a dick in any previous posts, even though they don’t make me sound like a dick.
    But, I’m not sorry now.
    In fact, I never insulted you in any thread until the last post, and that was just little sarcasm.
    Me? No, you were being a dick. I have kept my calm in losing arguments and even when I have lost an arguments. Your tone in most of your post sounds annoyed when I should be the annoyed one.
    I have a goddamned right to be a dick in this moment. I wasn’t even making a go at you. I was making a sarcastic remark.
    /
    “We can continue on a Raiden thread where it would be relevant.”
    /
    This is relevant. Raiden is being discussed here not just by me.
    Raiden is getting overblown and wanked here.

  76. Alpha or Omega July 9, 2014 at 7:43 pm -      #176

    Uh, I’m sorry.
    I was a little bit angry and tired. Mostly both.
    This is awkward.
    /
    My fault. I’m just in a bad mood.

  77. Neon Lord July 9, 2014 at 7:46 pm -      #177

    “It’s not just speed, though. Raiden’s durability is probably greater (considering the hits he can take from Armstrong) and his strength is vastly superior as well (as he can throw Metal Gears).”

    Strength I will grant, but none of Armstrong’s attacks were cutting blades that could suck the life-force out of who they hit. Just blunt force punches.

  78. Ragnorke July 9, 2014 at 7:47 pm -      #178

    “First of all, Pit takes no damage because he dodges.”

    No, he is dodge-ing, but clearly still gets hit… and takes no damage.
    Game-mechanics.

    “Third, this changes nothing, Raiden isn’t fast enough to block a bullet at point blank. So if an enemy shoots him 1mm away while ninja-running/blocking, it’s not fucking logic, but a feat…”

    So… you’re using the assumption that Raiden isn’t fast enough to block a bullet at point blank… to further support your argument that Raiden isn’t fast enough to block a bullet at point blank…
    See the issue there?

    “So what proof do you even have for somehow knowing that they do it to represent gameplay instead of Raiden. Your speculation is equal to my speculation and mine is equal to yours.
    If anything, you’re the biased one since you refuse to take any argument. I should refuse to listen to you since you’re acting ridiculous.”

    If both of our assumptions are just as good as the others… then why am i the being biased and ridiculous?
    Shouldn’t our assumptions be considered equally biased and ridiculous?

    “Official representation=Official Representation.”

    A tutorial video teaches you how to play a game, it is MEANT to include a games game-mechanics to some degree.
    Cover photos are not the same case.
    So i stick by tutorial videos =/= cover photos

    “Except to be in vision doesn’t require anyone to be in melee or close range.”

    When did i say melee range?
    And “close” is not a constant distance… it comes down to perspective… So why are you arguing against me on this?

    “I recall you saying that my arguments were silly ”

    I said one of your arguments was silly.
    You were saying a character cannot do something very general, because he has not done something very specific.
    I still stand by that being a silly argument.
    I do not consider you a silly person or a silly debater, i consider that specific argument to be silly, and i have given my reason for thinking so.

    “In fact, I never insulted you in any thread until the last post, and that was just little sarcasm.
    Me? No, you were being a dick.”

    Copy/pasting:
    Me: I’m relatively new to BankGambling, but unless stated otherwise we assume all combatants are nearby, in vision of each other.
    Otherwise one side would likely get an unfair advantage.”
    You: “You don’t need to be nearby for both to see each other.”
    Me: ““You may have misunderstood “nearby” then.”
    You: “Oh, so what’s the distance then?
    I’m sorry that I can’t understand everything.”
    Me: “There is no set distance that i know of, only that they are usually in vision of each other.
    No need to be a dick about it.”

    I made it pretty clear that i wasn’t sure about it, and that they usually start “nearby”.
    And i know full well that you were just being sarcastic in your last comment, and i intended for my response to be taken lightly too.
    Clearly you didn’t take it lightly. It’s a debating site afterall, and things can get heated, i don’t mind. Think what you will.

    “This is relevant. Raiden is being discussed here not just by me.
    Raiden is getting overblown and wanked here.”

    No, it isn’t relevant becaus Raiden cannot defend against the swarmlords primary form of attack.
    I already said Raiden would lose, so if you continue to think it’s relevant… i don’t even know… who are you trying to convince now?

    “Ah, so Platinum games, known for rule of cool even before they were known as Platinum games should have every feat that’s cool be canon.”

    Well… a feat’s a feat… You can call it PIS if you have good enough reason though.

  79. Alpha or Omega July 9, 2014 at 8:22 pm -      #179

    “No, he is dodge-ing, but clearly still gets hit… and takes no damage.
    Game-mechanics.”
    /
    Not for every thing though. The hitscan weapons? Only for that will I agree.
    /
    “So… you’re using the assumption that Raiden isn’t fast enough to block a bullet at point blank… to further support your argument that Raiden isn’t fast enough to block a bullet at point blank…
    See the issue there?”
    /
    First of all, it’s not an assumption. Since we are bringing gameplay showing Raiden blocking point blank, so I’m bringing gameplay where he fails to block at pointblank against hits slower than bullets that are already slow.
    /
    “If both of our assumptions are just as good as the others… then why am i the being biased and ridiculous?
    Shouldn’t our assumptions be considered equally biased and ridiculous?”
    /
    Because you are ignoring the game mechanic argument and trying to put it on Pit only. The other part of the argument would still make Raiden’s ninjarun/block not viable at point blank ranges.
    /
    “A tutorial video teaches you how to play a game, it is MEANT to include a games game-mechanics to some degree.
    Cover photos are not the same case.
    So i stick by tutorial videos =/= cover photos”
    /
    They’re still both official presentations of the main characters.
    Yet, the back cover image is from gameplay and also shows that you, the player, can do this in the game and to show the capability of the game. This is the purpose of a back image of gameplay. You don’t want to have no image gameplay.
    /
    I said one of your arguments was silly.
    You were saying a character cannot do something very general, because he has not done something very specific.
    I still stand by that being a silly argument.
    I do not consider you a silly person or a silly debater, i consider that specific argument to be silly, and i have given my reason for thinking so.
    /
    “I said one of your arguments was silly.
    You were saying a character cannot do something very general, because he has not done something very specific.
    I still stand by that being a silly argument.
    I do not consider you a silly person or a silly debater, i consider that specific argument to be silly, and i have given my reason for thinking so.”
    /
    You actually said that twice. Silly and terrible for different ones.
    Never mind that you called me dense and a dick.
    And all I have done was defend my arguments.
    If you still think it’s silly
    /
    Copy/pasting:
    Me: I’m relatively new to BankGambling, but unless stated otherwise we assume all combatants are nearby, in vision of each other.
    Otherwise one side would likely get an unfair advantage.”
    You: “You don’t need to be nearby for both to see each other.”
    Me: ““You may have misunderstood “nearby” then.”
    You: “Oh, so what’s the distance then?
    I’m sorry that I can’t understand everything.”
    Me: “There is no set distance that i know of, only that they are usually in vision of each other.
    No need to be a dick about it.”
    /
    You still called me a dick.
    Post 146
    “Using the whole “He hasnt deflected a point blank bullet, so he isn’t supersonic” is a terrible argument. Jus’ sayin…”
    Post 172
    “It isn’t the fucking same thing o.o Stop being so dense.”
    And it isn’t just some insults. Your tone here such as using *sigh* and … every where sounds like you’re being annoyed,
    You were being dense, and having a terrible argument as well. I didn’t call you out of it.
    Calling me a dick wasn’t lightly taking my sarcastic comment.
    /
    “No, it isn’t relevant becaus Raiden”
    /
    Yes, it’s relevant whether Raiden loses or wins. We’re debating his feats and his calculations.
    /
    “so if you continue to think it’s relevant… i don’t even know… who are you trying to convince now?”
    /
    You and Aelfinn. I was never debating for the swarmlord and you guys want to support Raiden being casual super sonic.
    /
    “Well… a feat’s a feat… You can call it PIS if you have good enough reason though.”
    /
    If Dante was moving past mach 5, Dante would have hit the ground instead of having some minute long cutscene.
    For the savior stomp feat, it’s wrong since we clearly see the crater that his stomp has created.
    Raiden making invisible slices didn’t seem like 20 milliseconds and it’s based on that since it’s invisible, it’sless than 20 milliseconds. Despite that only one skill makes him supersonic. Furthermore, if Raiden was shown to be super sonic there, he should have beaten Sam in the first fight.
    So, it’s rule of cool. Flaming hand and blocking stomp and all.

  80. Ragnorke July 9, 2014 at 8:44 pm -      #180

    “And it isn’t just some insults. Your tone here such as using *sigh* and … every where sounds like you’re being annoyed,
    Calling me a dick wasn’t lightly taking my sarcastic comment.”

    Calling you a dick WAS meant to be taken lightly, whether you took it that way or not.
    Calling someone dense is…. not a bad insult at all on a debating site tbh… If an argument continues for too long it’s obviously because both people consider the other to be dense. It actually isn’t an insult at all.

    “You were being dense, and having a terrible argument as well. I didn’t call you out of it.”

    …I already know you think i’m dense, which is exactly why the debate is still continuing. I take no insult in it.

    “You and Aelfinn. I was never debating for the swarmlord and you guys want to support Raiden being casual super sonic.”

    You’re mistaken again here. Post #156
    “I’m personally not saying 1 way or the other right now btw, i don’t have the time to do any calcs, nor do i have a good enough memory of the game.
    I just found your argument silly tbh.”
    I’m not saying Raiden is casual super-sonic, i’m debating against the flaws i’m seeing in your argument.

    “Yes, it’s relevant whether Raiden loses or wins. We’re debating his feats and his calculations.”

    They wouldn’t change anything, and therefor do not need to be debated.
    Unless Raiden can travel to a “nearby” distance and slice the swarmlord to pieces faster than the speed of a thought, and NO ONE is saying Raiden is that fast.

    Anyhow, sorry for the rudeness, goodnight sir.
    There is no longer any reason to continue debating this here.

  81. OberHerr July 9, 2014 at 8:55 pm -      #181

    Who cares if its rule of cool? Since when do videogame characters have to adhere to anything logical?

  82. Alpha or Omega July 9, 2014 at 9:05 pm -      #182

    “Calling you a dick WAS meant to be taken lightly, whether you took it that way or not.
    Calling someone dense is…. not a bad insult at all on a debating site tbh… If an argument continues for too long it’s obviously because both people consider the other to be dense. It actually isn’t an insult at all.”
    /
    Except from the tone(annoyed) of your posts, it didn’t sound lightly. Just saying. If it was meant to be taken lightly, then sorry. However, tone is kinda important and the internet is serious business.
    /
    “I’m not saying Raiden is casual super-sonic, i’m debating against the flaws i’m seeing in your argument.”
    /
    And I’m thanking you for that, since it did lead me to go search for more evidence on the internet. Still, you were debating against me, so I was debating against you.
    /
    “They wouldn’t change anything, and therefor do not need to be debated.
    Unless Raiden can travel to a “nearby” distance and slice the swarmlord to pieces faster than the speed of a thought, and NO ONE is saying Raiden is that fast.”
    /
    Regardless of the victor, they would still give Raiden feats that would raise questions and people against it. If I didn’t do it, someone else would anyway.
    /
    See you later

  83. Alpha or Omega July 9, 2014 at 9:07 pm -      #183

    “Who cares if its rule of cool? Since when do videogame characters have to adhere to anything logical?”
    /
    Well, when there’s rule of cool involved. There tends to be no logic involved, so it is kinda pointless to calculate something that could ignore logic.

  84. Ragnorke July 9, 2014 at 9:11 pm -      #184

    @Ober
    “Who cares if its rule of cool? Since when do videogame characters have to adhere to anything logical?”

    Pretty sure AoO is basically saying it’s PIS.
    Similar to Batman shooting darkseid and dodging the Omega beams, it was to make batman appear more badass, but completely contradicted all his past feats.
    Although i don’t agree with him on applying it in this situation.

    ” There tends to be no logic involved, so it is kinda pointless to calculate something that could ignore logic.”

    Fictional universes usually throw logic out the window on a regular basis, but feats are still feats.
    I get what you mean anyways.

  85. Alpha or Omega July 9, 2014 at 9:15 pm -      #185

    Actually, rule of cool and pis are two different things.
    tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool
    tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ForgotAboutHisPowers?from=Main.PlotInducedStupidity
    They can happen at the same time sometimes though.
    /
    “Fictional universes usually throw logic out the window on a regular basis, but feats are still feats.
    I get what you mean anyways.”
    /
    Yes, it’s a feat, but not everything can be calculated.
    Is it truly invisible due to the fact that it moves too fast or is it because the developers thought it would be cool?
    Is his hand on fire because he’s going to fast or is it because it’s cool?
    Either way, it is…cool.

  86. creyzi4j July 10, 2014 at 10:40 am -      #186

    I don’t know who Raiden is; but after reading earlier comic versions of Warhammer40k where Tyranid Swarmlords get killed with primitive weapons (stone tipped spears), I’m guessing Swarmlord gets murked.

  87. OberHerr July 10, 2014 at 10:59 am -      #187

    Nope. Firstly, Swarmlord solos the hierarchy of entire SM Chapters by himself, only losing due to plotshielding. Second, he’s a psyker. So mind rape.

  88. TheSorrow July 10, 2014 at 11:04 am -      #188

    after reading earlier comic versions of Warhammer40k where Tyranid Swarmlords get killed with primitive weapons (stone tipped spears

    What is with you and making those kinds of claims? How do you know that’s canon, or better yet, even of it is canon, why does it actively contradict what we know about the Swarmlord?

    I have a real hard time believing that you fact-checked yourself before commenting, because the last time you tried this tactic, you were flat out wrong. I would go so far as to say that you were lying.

  89. pimpmage July 10, 2014 at 11:08 am -      #189

    He did a drive by on three different posts and left a pile of crap each time. I think he truely believes what he is saying too.

  90. TheSorrow July 10, 2014 at 11:11 am -      #190

    That much was apparent when she tried to debate for Lara Croft against an Unarmed Space Marine.

  91. creyzi4j July 10, 2014 at 1:03 pm -      #191

    Here’s the pic tinypic.com/view.php?pic=xlvuwn
    It’s from Warhammer Monthly 01

  92. TheSorrow July 10, 2014 at 1:13 pm -      #192

    Here’s the pic tinypic.com/view.php?pic=xlvuwn
    It’s from Warhammer Monthly 01


    Okay… that tells me fuck all about the comic, which by the way looks nothing like Warhammer. It doesn’t say if it’s the Swarmlord (which looks nothing like it). Hell, it hardly even looks like a Tyranid.

  93. Cassie Hack July 10, 2014 at 1:35 pm -      #193

    No that’s a nid I’m sure, but yeah I doubt it’s a swarmlord. Probably something smaller though.

  94. OberHerr July 10, 2014 at 1:42 pm -      #194

    Looks like a Termagant….

    warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Termagant

    Which I should add is the absolute lowest of the low in an army full of expendable creatures.

    Could be a Tyranid Warrior too. Its now easy to tell.

    Regardless, its far less powerful than a Swarmlord is, not to mention it looks like that guy had plotshielding out the wazoo.

  95. Mea quidem sententia July 10, 2014 at 2:13 pm -      #195

    Ragnorke Post #96
    What Alpha or Omega is trying to say is that if the missiles – which are visually not even achieving Mach 1 – can be treated as traveling Mach 1 because they’re based on an actual missiles, the same can be applied for lasers. To deny this is to commit a special pleading, unless there truly is some sort of justification.

    You said bullets behave the same way in MGR as they do in real life, but how do you know? Just because they move fast, doesn’t necessarily mean that they do move fast. However, if we are to apply this, then we have to do the same for lasers.

    To offer an example, in Spiderman 2, when cops or thugs shoot, you can see the bullets traveling. Clearly, they’re not moving at the speed they should. We could say that in the real world, you wouldn’t see bullets fly at you.

    Someone might argue that this is what Spiderman sees, so we’re just seeing it as well. I don’t know how anyone can justify this. It’s always an assertion when I see people assert it. I’ve yet to see anyone support it.

    I feel that there are only two options we can abide by to be consistent for the most part. We can either consider real-world objects and apply them to fiction and quantify them that way, or we can simply say, “It’s an x in that universe, but it doesn’t behave the way it does in our universe, thus, we shouldn’t apply real-world applications to these.”

    If we went by the former, then yes, characters who dodge lasers should have nanosecond reaction time. Since AoO mentioned Samus, one could argue that her stacked beam weapons travel near or at c because they’re directed-energy weapons, or because the wave beam fires radio waves, which travel at c.

    If we went with the latter, then it would still be true that yes, the laser is a laser, but it doesn’t behave the same way actual lasers do. If there is a third option, that’d be great.

  96. Ragnorke July 10, 2014 at 2:25 pm -      #196

    “because they’re based on an actual missiles, the same can be applied for lasers. ”

    False.
    We have no proof of them being actual Lasers.
    Lasers are a very specific thing btw, It would be just a blast of energy.
    Lasers move at the speed of light because they are light. Other energies do not need to move at the same speed.

    “However, if we are to apply this, then we have to do the same for lasers.”

    *sigh*
    Just caus it looks like a shiny beam, does not make is a L.A.S.E.R, it just makes it a beam of energy.

    “Clearly, they’re not moving at the speed they should. We could say that in the real world, you wouldn’t see bullets fly at you.”

    The speed we see the bullets flying at is a gameplay mechanic, spiderman dodging said bullets is not a gameplay mechanic.
    Why shouldnt the same apply to Raiden deflecting bullets?

    “or because the wave beam fires radio waves, which travel at c.”

    Electromagnetic waves ONLY travel at c in a vacuum.
    They are much much much much slower in real life scenarios. Usually not anywhere near c.

  97. Cassie Hack July 10, 2014 at 2:56 pm -      #197

    The issue is we don’t know how much it slows it down… from what I’ve been seeing though the drop in speed isn’t that severe. There is no concrete number though, but it’s definitely going to be immensely fast.

  98. Mea quidem sententia July 10, 2014 at 2:59 pm -      #198

    Ragnorke Post #196
    They’re called lasers. Tell me why that should be dismissed. Is it because of the way they appear? If so, I’ll use visual evidence to counter Raiden leaping from missile to missile traveling Mach 1. Game mechanic? Again, I’ll say the same about those lasers.

    I take it you know light is also an electromagnetic wave. I doubt they are much (x4) slower. Here’s how I know. Using the refractive index, 299,792,458 / 1.000293 = 299,704,645 m/s, or a little over 99% the speed of light. Of course, while it is true that light travels at 299,792,458 m/s in a vacuum, oftentimes this is ignored, similarly to the way Mach 1 is only 343 m/s at sea level.

    But, no matter how you slice it, it looks like Tyranid Swarmlord has this.

  99. Cassie Hack July 10, 2014 at 3:23 pm -      #199

    Or Mea can prove me wrong completely.

  100. Ragnorke July 10, 2014 at 3:24 pm -      #200

    Going through objects slows down electromagnetic waves by different degrees depending on the type of energy used, they all have different wave lengths and frequencies.
    We have no idea what the “lasers” are actually made of, for all we know they are magical and throw all logic out the window. Bullets however are much more consistent.

    Andddd I agreed swarmlord wins like 50 posts ago.

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